Summer Repot of Flowering Quince?

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

I have a rather large flowering quince that I got from @Stickroot many moons ago. I haven't done much to it....and I almost killed it a couple of summers ago.

Here it is when I first received it in Dec of 2016


The red buds swelling few months later




Here it is in the fall of 2017, shortly after I almost killed it.





Then summer of 2018 (August, I believe)






I think I finally have figured out how to care for this tree and get it healthy. Healthy enough I think for a repot. Here's a few photos from today, as you can see, pretty full. New growth forming. (TakeRoot bottle for size)


So, here is my question. I've seen many people on here discuss summer repotting, especially of flowering quince. If this was your tree, would you repot this summer? If so, when exactly? I assume the thought process is that the tree will enter into a short dormancy period due to the heat? So maybe later in June, early July, for the St. Louis area?

Also, would you suggest a cut back at the same time?

Any thoughts and or critiques would be appreciated!

 

[Carol 83]

I'm very interested in the replies that you get. I also have a flowering quince in questionable soil (though much smaller than yours) so wondered about a summer repot. I have read they prefer to be repotted in the fall. How do you overwinter yours @Gdy2000 , seeing we are very close in location to each other?

 

[0soyoung]

I'll guarantee you that right after flowering is one of the worst times to repot a chaenomeles.
My theory of why around August is good is that it has a good deal of newly hardened foliage that is highly productive in terms of auxin to stimulate root growth and carbohydrates to fuel/supply that growth. Leaves are somewhat waxy and so the plant does a good job of limiting moisture loss by simply closing leaf stomata.
The key is for repotting time is that it be a time when there is a high capacity to root growth. Dormancy is the absolute worst time because there is no capacity to do anything. This 'summer dormancy' thing is BS. There simply is little or no extension happening. Metabolic processes are running at high speed compared to spring 'as buds swell'.
Spring repotting is difficult because it is very easy to dislodge flower buds, but it is a good time to repot if you don't care about flowers (but then, why are you growing chaenomeles?).

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

I'm very interested in the replies that you get. I also have a flowering quince in questionable soil (though much smaller than yours) so wondered about a summer repot. I have read they prefer to be repotted in the fall. How do you overwinter yours @Gdy2000 , seeing we are very close in location to each other?

Not much protection, tbh, but the container for this tree is large. If it was a smaller container I’d probably think about burying it. How about you?

 

[PeaceLoveBonsai]

I'll guarantee you that right after flowering is one of the worst times to repot a chaenomeles.
My theory of why around August is good is that it has a good deal of newly hardened foliage that is highly productive in terms of auxin to stimulate root growth and carbohydrates to fuel/supply that growth. Leaves are somewhat waxy and so the plant does a good job of limiting moisture loss by simply closing leaf stomata.
The key is for repotting time is that it be a time when there is a high capacity to root growth. Dormancy is the absolute worst time because there is no capacity to do anything. This 'summer dormancy' thing is BS. There simply is little or no extension happening. Metabolic processes are running at high speed compared to spring 'as buds swell'.
Spring repotting is difficult because it is very easy to dislodge flower buds, but it is a good time to repot if you don't care about flowers (but then, why are you growing chaenomeles?).

Thanks Oso. So how cool is it in August where you are? In St Louis, we still have, as Neil Diamond might say, Hot August Nights! Wondering if that would be closer to late September down here, temperature wise?

And would you cut back at that time as well?

 

[Carol 83]

Not much protection, tbh, but the container for this tree is large. If it was a smaller container I’d probably think about burying it. How about you?

Just got it recently, thinking ahead.

 

[0soyoung]

Thanks Oso. So how cool is it in August where you are? In St Louis, we still have, as Neil Diamond might say, Hot August Nights! Wondering if that would be closer to late September down here, temperature wise?

And would you cut back at that time as well?

Rarely ever much above 70F, which really isn't so good - metabolic rates or growth is slow compared to in the high 80sF. Growth accelerates rapidly with increasing temperature until nearly 95F where the rate of photosynthesis saturates (doesn't increase any more). Higher and trees actually burn more carbon than they fix. Aside from that, it is purely humidity stress. My rH rarely drops below 50%. On the steamy banks of the big muddy, it doesn't either, I don't think. Plants/trees love it. We humans find it insufferable. We're not trees. Trees aren't people.

No cut back. The point is all that foliage powers rapid recovery. If they get droopy, a little shade, maybe sprinkle for a few days and all will be good. Then, after a few weeks, you can cut/style to your heart's content.

the container for this tree is large. If it was a smaller container I’d probably think about burying it.

It is important to keep the root temperature well below 95F. You can check it with an inexpensive meat thermometer probe from the grocery store. I believe you'll find that it isn't much of a problem until the substrate dries, but black plastic pots can be a problem even when the substrate is damp, if you are using such things.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I visit Saint Louis often, I would say for @Gdy2000 & @Carol 83 you should both wait until beginning of September to repot Chaenomeles, flowering quince. Flowering quince normally drop a lot of leaves during the heat of summer. It is a "summer dormancy" of sorts. When night temps start dropping below 65 F and cooler, usually September, there will be a flush of root growth and the foliage too. If you repot just before the flush of root growth, the tree will be able to settle in for winter. I wintered 'Minerva', 'Iwai Nishiki' and 'Contorted White' just set on ground out of wind for winter. All were in plastic pots. All did fine. All 3 are larger size flowering quinces, I believe 'Chojubai' 'Hime' & 'Kan Toyo' , which are more dwarf, I believe they are not as winter hardy as the larger types.

 

[Driftwood]

Rarely ever much above 70F, which really isn't so good - metabolic rates or growth is slow compared to in the high 80sF. Growth accelerates rapidly with increasing temperature until nearly 95F where the rate of photosynthesis saturates (doesn't increase any more). Higher and trees actually burn more carbon than they fix. Aside from that, it is purely humidity stress. My rH rarely drops below 50%. On the steamy banks of the big muddy, it doesn't either, I don't think. Plants/trees love it. We humans find it insufferable. We're not trees. Trees aren't people.

No cut back. The point is all that foliage powers rapid recovery. If they get droopy, a little shade, maybe sprinkle for a few days and all will be good. Then, after a few weeks, you can cut/style to your heart's content.

It is important to keep the root temperature well below 95F. You can check it with an inexpensive meat thermometer probe from the grocery store. I believe you'll find that it isn't much of a problem until the substrate dries, but black plastic pots can be a problem even when the substrate is damp, if you are using such things.

Hi, I repotted a relatively old pot bounded shohin Japanese quince at the end of August. Perhaps I removed more roots than necessarily and although was in a shade location one day it did dried a bit more than I wanted... So it dropped most leaves, I sunken it for a few minutes and using the bag technic spraying Rhizotonic, still have a few leaves but the akadama is staying wet... Could you give any advice please?

 

[sorce]

Hi, I repotted a relatively old pot bounded shohin Japanese quince at the end of August. Perhaps I removed more roots than necessarily and although was in a shade location one day it did dried a bit more than I wanted... So it dropped most leaves, I sunken it for a few minutes and using the bag technic spraying Rhizotonic, still have a few leaves but the akadama is staying wet... Could you give any advice please?

Pics!
How much bottom removed? How much top?
End of August was not a good moon.

Sorce

 

[0soyoung]

Hi, I repotted a relatively old pot bounded shohin Japanese quince at the end of August. Perhaps I removed more roots than necessarily and although was in a shade location one day it did dried a bit more than I wanted... So it dropped most leaves, I sunken it for a few minutes and using the bag technic spraying Rhizotonic, still have a few leaves but the akadama is staying wet... Could you give any advice please?

First, if your substrate is staying too wet, do the obvious = quit watering so frequently.

Second, put it in a sunny location like where it was before you removed too many roots. Keep it there as long as the leaves remain normally turgid (and the substrate is just damp). If this is a 'been-there-done-that-already', keep it where it now is and be patient - recovery from overdone root work is slow. When you water, water in the heat of the day and sprinkle the foliage too.

The pot the plant was (or going to be) in is a guide for root reduction. Turn the pot upside down, put the tree atop it and use the pot base as the template for cutting back the roots. This will leave enough room for healthy root growth for a year or two. A bigger difference is 'over-potting' and will retard above ground growth as well as produce wet substrate problems.

I've never used Rhizotonic. Maybe the spaying of it accomplishes the same as sprinkling the foliage. I dunno. I spray a diluted hydrogen peroxide solution on my cuttings to 'mist' them and nix fungal issues at the same time.

 

[Driftwood]

Pics!
How much bottom removed? How much top?
End of August was not a good moon.

Sorce

First, if your substrate is staying too wet, do the obvious = quit watering so frequently.

Second, put it in a sunny location like where it was before you removed too many roots. Keep it there as long as the leaves remain normally turgid (and the substrate is just damp). If this is a 'been-there-done-that-already', keep it where it now is and be patient - recovery from overdone root work is slow. When you water, water in the heat of the day and sprinkle the foliage too.

The pot the plant was (or going to be) in is a guide for root reduction. Turn the pot upside down, put the tree atop it and use the pot base as the template for cutting back the roots. This will leave enough room for healthy root growth for a year or two. A bigger difference is 'over-potting' and will retard above ground growth as well as produce wet substrate problems.

I've never used Rhizotonic. Maybe the spaying of it accomplishes the same as sprinkling the foliage. I dunno. I spray a diluted hydrogen peroxide solution on my cuttings to 'mist' them and nix fungal issues at the same time.

Hi, the first pic was using the bag technic for about 4 days but because this week there is a heatwave I have removed the bag. The second pic I thought it was about to drop all leaves but it looks like it keeping some, I hope it won't dry the other branches. the third pic was last June. I removed about 50% root mass. Checking my notes, I actually repotted the first week of this month.
I always thought that aftercare is in a shade location? thank you for the root reduction tip. I thought to spray any fungicide on a weak tree was not a good idea?

 

[sorce]

last June

2020?

Do you have any root pics?

So far all I might have is standard, "don't do too much too fast info", without doing too much guessing.

The dark mossiness is the only thing giving me pause currently, without more information on specifics.

dried a bit more than I wanted...

Also concerning. Notes?

Sorce

 

[Driftwood]

2020?

Do you have any root pics?

So far all I might have is standard, "don't do too much too fast info", without doing too much guessing.

The dark mossiness is the only thing giving me pause currently, without more information on specifics.



Also concerning. Notes?

Sorce

Hi, of course, 2020. No root pics, it was root bound but all fine roots, removed about 50 to 60%. yea usually after reporting my plants don't take much water but this one dried (at least the top) in one morning... kind of panicked and watered without checking properly. leaves started to turn brown and drop the next day or day after...

 

[sorce]

of course, 2020

In the current year, where it is (by most known current means) impossible for it to be "next" June if only "June" is stated with no adjective, I believe one is to assume the most recent June is what has been spoken of. Where the addition of the adjective "last", would mean the one prior to the only one physically possible.

Perhaps this is different as "soda", and "pop". If so, note I am a "pop".

What kind of hell did it face between June and Now?

Sorce

 

[Driftwood]

In the current year, where it is (by most known current means) impossible for it to be "next" June if only "June" is stated with no adjective, I believe one is to assume the most recent June is what has been spoken of. Where the addition of the adjective "last", would mean the one prior to the only one physically possible.

Perhaps this is different as "soda", and "pop". If so, note I am a "pop".

What kind of hell did it face between June and Now?

Sorce

I see! Sorry I meant June 2020 and as you can see the plant was doing OK.

 

[sorce]

I see! Sorry I meant June 2020 and as you can see the plant was doing OK.

It was BANGING! That's why I was sure it was 2019.

Any intermediate pics?

Something about the entirety of the UK, makes me feel Summer repotting is where it's at. Full green, summer Repots.

Sorce

 

[roberthu]

Rarely ever much above 70F, which really isn't so good - metabolic rates or growth is slow compared to in the high 80sF. Growth accelerates rapidly with increasing temperature until nearly 95F where the rate of photosynthesis saturates (doesn't increase any more). Higher and trees actually burn more carbon than they fix. Aside from that, it is purely humidity stress. My rH rarely drops below 50%. On the steamy banks of the big muddy, it doesn't either, I don't think. Plants/trees love it. We humans find it insufferable. We're not trees. Trees aren't people.

No cut back. The point is all that foliage powers rapid recovery. If they get droopy, a little shade, maybe sprinkle for a few days and all will be good. Then, after a few weeks, you can cut/style to your heart's content.

It is important to keep the root temperature well below 95F. You can check it with an inexpensive meat thermometer probe from the grocery store. I believe you'll find that it isn't much of a problem until the substrate dries, but black plastic pots can be a problem even when the substrate is damp, if you are using such things.

Thank you for these details. Is there any guideline as to how much root can be removed? I am looking to get some materials in nursery pots into bonsai pots so I may need to do some serious pruning. I should definitely wait until the high drops to the 70’s right?

 

[Driftwood]

It was BANGING! That's why I was sure it was 2019.

Any intermediate pics?

Something about the entirety of the UK, makes me feel Summer repotting is where it's at. Full green, summer Repots.

Sorce

Thank you. No intermediate pics but apart of some dry tips or fewer leaves it was pretty much the same as in June pic, I'm afraid you are right about being repotted a bit early but although in UK you can't predict next week weather, September is not summer weather temperatures drops to 18C / 64F day (mostly cloudy) and 12C /53F at night.. but today we had 25C/77F and people were rushing to the beach

 

[0soyoung]

Is there any guideline as to how much root can be removed? I am looking to get some materials in nursery pots into bonsai pots so I may need to do some serious pruning. I should definitely wait until the high drops to the 70’s right?

Take it in steps. First remove the nursery soil and get it into your chosen substrate.
Start by knocking off the plastic nursery pot. Cut off the bottom third to half of the plug. Then wash and/or gently comb the roots to get rid of the soil. Then do as I described, using the nursery pot it was in. If (based on experience) this seems like removing far too much root, find and larger diameter pot.

If reusing the nursery pot it came in, you should fill the bottom 2/3rds or so with bonsai substrate and put your plant on top and cover the roots with substrate. But I've glossed over two problems.

1. substrate will just pour right out the nursery pot drain holes
   1. I put a bit of sphagnum or green moss in the drain holes
   2. OR a big piece of screen that will cover the bottom of the pot and all the drain holes
2. the plant is not constrained in the pot
   1. I thread a long piece of wire through one or two drain holes, bending the end up on the outside of the pot, then place the plant and feed the wire down the other side and out an opposite drain hole, pulling to secure the tree and again bending the end up on the outside.
   2. secure the trunk/branches with guys to the pot rim so that it won't move when the pot is jostled.

Trees grow as the temperature increases up to about 95F/35C. The rate of photosynthesis is and remains maxed out, but the other metabolic processes continue to increase with temperature, so the tree doesn't grow - it burns carbon faster than it can be fixed. Other and deleterious effects occur above this temperature - certainly by 115F/40C tissues are dying. Conversely, even though you may feel uncomfortable, trees are growing fast and thriving at temperatures below 95F/35C. Below 40F/5C metabolic activity is very very low, and there is virtually no growth.

The issue with 'heat waves' is that they arise because of the incursion of a dry air mass. Like my climate, the relative humidity (rH) of yours rarely drops below 50%. When you had the heat wave, it dropped as low as 30% or so when the temperature of the day maxed-out in the afternoons. I went over this in some detail years ago - maybe reading through one such old post will help you to understand, if you want to take the dive.