Superthrive - it Works -myth

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Alain, all you say is the same for using Auxin on cuttings.
No.
The auxin works better at varying strengths on varying species.
Yes.



Yes the results are from saplings and we can't say for sure the same is for mature specimens. I think any scientist would not say that the same has to be for mature trees but they would be optimistic in experiments to test this. I think we should be optimistic that it is the same as well.
No because it has already be done and the results are that auxin inhibits root growth...

There is something very important that you seem not to grasp :
when you use auxin to promote rooting of cuttings, you promote differentiation from undifferentiated tissues and even if there is a optimum concentration, it works for a wide range of concentrations.

What you want to do with auxin is to promote growth from already differentiated roots and this is a completely different problem. It is demonstrated that it doesn't work for a wide range of concentrations.
As to It's use on differentiated on undifferentiated tissues I have heard nothing of this and you will have to explain more and show the study where you got this information.
See this primer of growth regulators. See the figure : "root inititation " (this is making a root from an undifferentiated callus and what is done in rooting cuttings) : auxins promote. "Root growth" ( this is what you want to do) : Auxins inhibits .

Yes auxin can increase root growth
: no , it doesn't ;) : this is a classical result.
and I believe that I have already stated that adding Auxin only works when the tree is lacking in auxin that it produces itself. I believe this is what you are trying to say.

No, what I wanted to say is what I wrote. You assume that more roots means more growth. This is the case only if mineral nutrition (water, ions) are the limiting factor. This is often the case in soil but not in a container where available space and total nutrients quantity are limited and then more roots mean just more sugar for root production without nutritional benefit and thus less for making leaves. Also, in a container, there is an optimum root /shoot ratio and when you're over, shoot growth is impended. This is also a classical result.
 
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bretts

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No because it has already be done and the results are that auxin inhibits root growth...
The studies I have shown clearly show that auxin has shown to promote root growth. If you have a study showing this is not so in some regard please show it.

Quote:
As to It's use on differentiated on undifferentiated tissues I have heard nothing of this and you will have to explain more and show the study where you got this information.

See this primer of growth regulators. See the figure : "root inititation " (this is making a root from an undifferentiated callus and what is done in rooting cuttings) : auxins promote. "Root growth" ( this is what you want to do) : Auxins inhibits .
This is a great article on the natural function of auxins but has nothing on added auxin inhibiting growth or even anything on added auxin at all wich this is about. Studies I have shown state an increase in root growth on established roots. If you have articles showing inhibited root growth then please show them.

What you want to do with auxin is to promote growth from already differentiated roots and this is a completely different problem. It is demonstrated that it doesn't work for a wide range of concentrations.
Yes using too much will kill the tree using too little will do nothing. That is the same when using hormones on cuttings. That is why I generally use the recomended amount but experimentation will help with different species to get optimum results.

no , it doesn't : this is a classical result.
Yes it does I have shown studies to back my findings do you have any to show that dispute these studies?


You assume that more roots means more growth. This is the case only if mineral nutrition (water, ions) are the limiting factor. This is often the case in soil but not in a container where available space and total nutrients quantity are limited and then more roots mean just more sugar for root production without nutritional benefit and thus less for making leaves. Also, in a container, there is an optimum root /shoot ratio and when you're over, shoot growth is impended. This is also a classical result.
I assume that if you want a tree to recover from stress then you want roots to grow first. I assume that when you first transplant a tree you want the roots to establish itself in the soil as quick as possible. More roots = more mouths = more growth = healthier tree. If you don't want strong roots then I wopuld agree you may not want to use Auxin when repotting:confused:
 
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This is a great article on the natural function of auxins but has nothing on added auxin inhibiting growth or even anything on added auxin at all wich this is about.
This is a strange idea. Why would exogen auxins work in a different way than those of the very same endogen auxins ? In this case, we could know nothing on the effects of endogen auxins because to know them we must add exogenously auxin.
So the fact is that knowledgable scientists of the field think that root growth inhibition by auxin is something so well established that this is this fact and not your point that should be known first by students of the field. This should be enough for anybody stranger to the domain of plant physiology and of good faith.
Now, if you really want research articles about that, just type "auxin root growth inhibition" in google.

Hope this helps.
 

bretts

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This is a strange idea. Why would exogen auxins work in a different way than those of the very same endogen auxins ? In this case, we could know nothing on the effects of endogen auxins because to know them we must add exogenously auxin.
I think you need to go back to Auxin basics you are confusing yourself.
Read this
http://cmg.colostate.edu/gardennotes/145.pdf
And the culmination of your auxin root growth inhibition google search ends here.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r065587u16685130/
Added auxins are a whole different ball game. Added auxins will only be of benefit when natural auxins are lacking in the tree. Your auxin root growth inhibition google search does show some interesting factors but I wonder how much of this you understand as you where not game to specify one article to state your point.
They are now genetically modifying trees that are stunted in growth but have stronger root systems I always suspected this had something to do with auxin and that it left holes in the studies that showed added auxin only gave benefits when auxin was not being produced by the growing shoots of the tree. it seems this Ethylene interaction with Auxin that is all through the auxin root growth inhibition articles is a part of the puzzle I have been trying to work out. Very interesting but it does not over ride the findings that a root system that is lacking in Auxin benefits from added auxin.
As the study above shows when auxin is lacking replenishing it will encourage extra root growth. It also addresses the older studies about the dependence of Auxin for Ethylene to inhibit root growth.

So the fact is that knowledgable scientists of the field think that root growth inhibition by auxin is something so well established that this is this fact and not your point that should be known first by students of the field. This should be enough for anybody stranger to the domain of plant physiology and of good faith.
The studies show that Ethylene and auxin work together to regulate root growth as well as all the other hormones in the tree. This does not dispel the studies I have shown which are to do with trees under some type of stress that has reduced the auxin available to the root system such as an increase in lateral root growth by as much as 20 times in field studies.
The basis of these studies is that if auxin is lacking adding more will help root growth if the tree already has enough auxin and you add more then root growth is inhibited for a short period and returns to normal or even still exceeds normal root growth when the added auxin is removed. Sounds like a safe bet each way if you suspect that your tree is lacking in Auxin.
 

bretts

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Alain,

Excellent information, thanks for sharing!



Will
Did you mention that super auxin that you suggest to use instead of the auxin that is not in Superthrive. Maybe you can set up a google search for that.
 
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Did you mention that super auxin that you suggest to use instead of the auxin that is not in Superthrive. Maybe you can set up a google search for that.

I said, other sources for Auxin, keep it straight....and I believe "super" was your word.


Bottom line, SuperThrive is a snake oil.



Will
 

meushi

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Ok, I found something interesting unfortunately the research paper is in Japanese except a couple of tables. The experiment was in two parts: first the rooting of butterbur apexes, then the effects of transplanting the resulting plantlets into an auxin augmented substrate (MS0 + 30g/l glucose + 8g/l of bacto-agar + 1NAA + BA).

"%" indicates the percentage of plantlets that survived the transplanting
"No" reprensents an average relative value, with 1 being the same amount as when transplanted. No<1 means the plantlet lost roots/shoots, No>1 means the plantlet gained roots/shoots.

1NAA-BA-table.jpg
 

bretts

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That is intresting Meushi.
Is there a control there that compares no Auxin? I don't think I see one. I also wonder when they say 2.6 roots or 3.0 roots if that means roots that have emerged from the cutting base or branchlets of roots. My understanding is that adding auxin will decrease downward growing roots and increase lateral branching of surface roots. The higher levels of auxin show shorter roots wich goes in line with my understanding. I really wish I could find a biochemist that could explain all this stuff for us.
I have checked my auxins and none of them seem to be BA wich seems to be a good thing considering that the same levels of BA to IAA killed 100%
 

bretts

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I said, other sources for Auxin, keep it straight....and I believe "super" was your word.


Bottom line, SuperThrive is a snake oil.
Yes Super was my word because a source of auxin as you describe sure sounds super. I just wish you would post these other sorces of auxin that isn't a sprout suppresent or able to be used as a pestacide.
Here let me google that for you.

Super Auxin
 
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meushi

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That is intresting Meushi.
Is there a control there that compares no Auxin? I don't think I see one. I also wonder when they say 2.6 roots or 3.0 roots if that means roots that have emerged from the cutting base or branchlets of roots. My understanding is that adding auxin will decrease downward growing roots and increase lateral branching of surface roots. The higher levels of auxin show shorter roots wich goes in line with my understanding. I really wish I could find a biochemist that could explain all this stuff for us.
I have checked my auxins and none of them seem to be BA wich seems to be a good thing considering that the same levels of BA to IAA killed 100%

Unfortunately there is no "no Auxin" comparison as this was a side finding in a study on how to produce a virus-free plant from a virus-infected plant. There aren't that many studies on the use of auxin on already rooted plants.

As far as I understood the study, that table is side roots and the previous table was initial roots. Notice that 0.1/1.0 isn't the only ratio to be detrimental to the roots, it is however the most detrimental combination for that specific plant.
 
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