tombeur
Yamadori
Well you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.
Superthrive - it Works -myth
- Thread starter ghues
- Start date
Well you can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think.
Asus101
Yamadori
But research can prove that its the product used, NOT other variables around the garden.
Anonymous User
Banned
I can't believe I am in the position of defending scientific research in the 21st century.
Science states that if I try to breath underwater, I will drown. I have no personal experience on this matter, but I am wise enough not to go through the trouble of confirming it.
Harry, your statement assumes that the research reported is without experience, nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, most of the research done in horticulture is gone by very experienced trained professionals who preform controlled experiments in order to test the validity of different techniques, methods, and practices, including the effectiveness of chemicals and other such additives. These people and the people just like them are directly responsible for most of the things you do use, including fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, etc. Their experience, education, and knowledge is exactly why the documented and verified studies they produce should be read and applied whenever feasible.
These people lead forestry departments, environmental agencies, horticulturists, arborists, and nurserymen around thew world. Studies such as these are looked to for valid information that will help produce better crops, trees, and results for all and studies such as these has changed the way farming and agriculture is done everywhere.
How's that for experience? It certainly beats a backyard collector who has never tried a controlled experiment.
Keep your head in the sand if you want, but these excuses just don't hold water, I ain't drinking the kool-aide. In fact, the belief in magic potions and old senseless traditions have done more to hold back development in bonsai than any other single thing. For example, every serious arborist in the world has stopped sealing wounds with no ill effect, yet bonsaists still cling to this old myth and argue against solid research that proves without a doubt that sealants do more harm than good.
Will
Last edited:
Anonymous User
Banned
Now that, was funny!
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Superthrive does indeed have a dramatic impact on plants. The attached picture is actually a Serissa foetida that has been given daily does of the magic stuff. While I would agree the results are not what everyone would desire, the impact of this amazing tonic can't be denied.
PS: Sorry Will, I had made this for another thread a lonnnng time ago and this seemed like a good time to pull it out.
PS: Sorry Will, I had made this for another thread a lonnnng time ago and this seemed like a good time to pull it out.
Attachments
bretts
Shohin
- Messages
- 273
- Reaction score
- 7
Sorry Will I have had you in my sights the last few days and you my friend have now stepped into my class. I gave up trying to sought the facts from emotion and inuendo in your posts I skipped most of the last couple of pages. When I feel inclined I may go back and review but at the moment it is like reading a letter from one of my daughters mother. It is to difficult to read because after the first paragraph I now almost exactly the bull that follows.
We have discussed this before so when you ignore a post by Eric stating
As you know Super thrive does contain plant hormones in the form of Auxin.
Auxin is the same plant hormone used in powder or gels to promote root growth on cuttings. Various tests have shown that considerably less concentrations can have a root re-generation affect on root tissue. This includes field studies in open ground, all be it with australian tube stock. The general findings of the studies show that added auxin can be usefull if the plant/tree is lacking in auxins produced from growing tips.
From what I can gather the research shows that Auxin is a very intresting hormone and it could be of great use in bonsai cultivation. From general use in repotting to a "tonic" for stalled or root damaged trees. This is by no means a finished theory. maybe there is not a big enough market for it but studies on large mature stock has not been conducted. The one main issue left out of any attempts to test Auxin has been that auxin has the most effect on stressed trees. Thisa is what the studies have shown.
Ther reason I have had you in my sights latley over this myth-busting is that I have again given thought to this and one of you experts as in Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University.
I have found linda's writings very informative but I have started to read between the lines a bit when I noticed she often states lots of research but never references her work. This seems very strange for some one of her stature??
Lets look at one of her statements.
Naphthylacetic acid (NAA) is also a commonly used auxin and often the active ingredient in commercial
preparations. NAA tends to be toxic to seedling root development, as it inhibits primary root growth and
enhances lateral root growth. This latter activity may account for NAA’s success in regenerating roots of
transplanted and root-pruned trees. Like IBA, NAA apparently suppresses crown growth, which also may
redirect resources to the roots.
NAA tends to be toxic to seedling root development, as it inhibits primary root growth and
enhances lateral root growth.
To stop primary root growth and enhance lateral root growth is generally what auxin does this may not be good for general nursery use but it sounds great for bonsai seedling development.
My main issue with Linda's words here is Toxic were is any proof that auxin does this because it is toxic.?
Then
This latter activity may account for NAA’s success in regenerating roots of
transplanted and root-pruned trees.
Since this section of her article is all about What does stimulate root growth.
In all fairness Linda could have written NAA has had success in regenerating roots of transplanted and root pruned trees. This may be from inhibiting primary root growth and enhancing lateral root growth
I feel alot of her writting is emotionaly biased. This coupled with her lack of referencing leads me to often read between the lines to get the real facts. In fact read her B1 myth busting together with her seasol myth busting wich is also an auxin to put together her full story on Auxins.
We have discussed this before so when you ignore a post by Eric stating
I know you are just dodging a bullet and not being forthcomming.
As you know Super thrive does contain plant hormones in the form of Auxin.
Auxin is the same plant hormone used in powder or gels to promote root growth on cuttings. Various tests have shown that considerably less concentrations can have a root re-generation affect on root tissue. This includes field studies in open ground, all be it with australian tube stock. The general findings of the studies show that added auxin can be usefull if the plant/tree is lacking in auxins produced from growing tips.
From what I can gather the research shows that Auxin is a very intresting hormone and it could be of great use in bonsai cultivation. From general use in repotting to a "tonic" for stalled or root damaged trees. This is by no means a finished theory. maybe there is not a big enough market for it but studies on large mature stock has not been conducted. The one main issue left out of any attempts to test Auxin has been that auxin has the most effect on stressed trees. Thisa is what the studies have shown.
Ther reason I have had you in my sights latley over this myth-busting is that I have again given thought to this and one of you experts as in Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor, Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University.
I have found linda's writings very informative but I have started to read between the lines a bit when I noticed she often states lots of research but never references her work. This seems very strange for some one of her stature??
Lets look at one of her statements.
Naphthylacetic acid (NAA) is also a commonly used auxin and often the active ingredient in commercial
preparations. NAA tends to be toxic to seedling root development, as it inhibits primary root growth and
enhances lateral root growth. This latter activity may account for NAA’s success in regenerating roots of
transplanted and root-pruned trees. Like IBA, NAA apparently suppresses crown growth, which also may
redirect resources to the roots.
NAA tends to be toxic to seedling root development, as it inhibits primary root growth and
enhances lateral root growth.
To stop primary root growth and enhance lateral root growth is generally what auxin does this may not be good for general nursery use but it sounds great for bonsai seedling development.
My main issue with Linda's words here is Toxic were is any proof that auxin does this because it is toxic.?
Then
This latter activity may account for NAA’s success in regenerating roots of
transplanted and root-pruned trees.
Since this section of her article is all about What does stimulate root growth.
In all fairness Linda could have written NAA has had success in regenerating roots of transplanted and root pruned trees. This may be from inhibiting primary root growth and enhancing lateral root growth
I feel alot of her writting is emotionaly biased. This coupled with her lack of referencing leads me to often read between the lines to get the real facts. In fact read her B1 myth busting together with her seasol myth busting wich is also an auxin to put together her full story on Auxins.
bretts
Shohin
- Messages
- 273
- Reaction score
- 7
Oh and I think it was Dale who suggested looking at the back cover of the latest Bonsai Focus. It is about the most intresting thing in the magazine. It is a signed recomendation from John Naka and Richard Ota of Superthrives merits.
I think it also offers a free trial but I think that must have expired
I think it also offers a free trial but I think that must have expired
Anonymous User
Banned
I think you have been watching too many action movies....
Other than your opening, this was a great post, thank you for taking the time to write it. Your information mostly was on subject without resorting to the idiotic method of attacking the person instead of the issues presented.
No dodging, I was just hoping this subject would be raised by more than one person.
Tell me, what form of auxin is actually in superthive?
Thank you.
Oh and I think it was Dale who suggested looking at the back cover of the latest Bonsai Focus. It is about the most intresting thing in the magazine. It is a signed recomendation from John Naka and Richard Ota of Superthrives merits.
I think it also offers a free trial but I think that must have expired
It's called paid endorsement and it is in a full page advertisements, I hope you'll forgive me for not basing my thoughts on advertisements....
Will
Bretts, Mr. Heath lives out of books so don't waste your time. He wouldn't know how to nail two 2x4's together without doing a Nation wide study in every major University in the Nation. And the funny thing about it ...... not one study will agree with the other. So you will end up sleeping under a sheet hung over a string tied between two trees.
Asus101
Yamadori
OMG you attack his person you person attacker!! In Mother Russia we would stone you for such filthy deeds!
bretts
Shohin
- Messages
- 273
- Reaction score
- 7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1-Naphthaleneacetic_acid
This one
Alright if you have been waiting now it is here maybe you would like to address it ?
This one
Alright if you have been waiting now it is here maybe you would like to address it ?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Once again words of wisdom from on high. Have you ever for a minute taken the time to think that there are people out there who know how wrong you are? What you just posted is like standing naked in front of a crowd with your eyes closed thinking that because you can't see them they can't see you. Name me one contribution your talents have made to the bonsai community?
Hint: Scorning Will Heath does not count.
Last edited:
Okay,I will give up bow down to your feet when you show me one research paper on just one JBP in a pot, done over the last 25 years. I must go out side now and water my trees with lemonade made from the lemons this board has given me.
Harry
Last edited:
Anonymous User
Banned
Once again, nothing intelligent to add to the discussion. You do know that there is no reason to continue proving how foolish you are, you already made that point.
Although your sarcasism is noted, you hit upon the very thing that prevents many experienced people from posting on forums Instead of direct, on topic, intelligent discussion, people like yourself and Ding Dong think that by attacking a person, they prove something, when in fact all they prove is their ignorence on the subject.
Address what? I asked you if you could tell me what auxin is in superthrive and you correctly stated Naphthaleneacetic acid. We'll look at this synthic chemical later, thanks for bringing it up.
For now, let's take a look at a label from this product, shall we?
both images hotlinked from http://www.superthrive.com
Looks like thiose old ads in comic books and makes the product appear to be able to do anything, win awards, become a champion, impress your friends, get girls.... please!
Add some sugar Harry, and the medicine goes down easier. JPB's are no different from other trees as far as basic growth mechanism and response is concerned.
Will
Okay, show me a research paper done on any tree in a pot in the last 25 years using inorganic soil and baking in a hot pot in the summer with the hot winds blowing it off the stand. Researchers like to work in a climate controlled environment mainly for their own comfort. Send em down here in Oklahoma in August for a month of field research when it's 105 degrees.
Harry
Harry
Last edited:
Coming soon to home tv
T*R*A*S*H Come join us as Mr. Heath and his 'merry men' trash and debunk well known Horticultural practices as they force nonsense opinions down the public's throats. See them bob and weave as the common sense experienced believers expose their insinuating rediculous remarks and practices.
T*R*A*S*H Come join us as Mr. Heath and his 'merry men' trash and debunk well known Horticultural practices as they force nonsense opinions down the public's throats. See them bob and weave as the common sense experienced believers expose their insinuating rediculous remarks and practices.
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
Ohhhh 105 is kinda chilly don't you think? There are many times during the summer that we stay over that at night here in Vegas. Try 115+ with 4% humidity and 30+ mph winds. Now you are in Vegas baby!
milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
What is your problem Will?
What don't you understand about the following on that label?!
"BILLIONS-PROVEN on billions of plants, by millions of growers by hundreds of thousands of professionals, by thousands of government agencies and universities, by "impossible" great landscape jobs "everywhere" by great proportion of winners of the national flowering plant societies' competitions."
See the proof? Heck, superthrive even helped us win WWII, the label says so. Not only that but "top U.S.D.A. scientists recommend it (we are not sure which one but definitely "top" ones).
*Removes tongue from cheek and gets back to work*
What don't you understand about the following on that label?!
"BILLIONS-PROVEN on billions of plants, by millions of growers by hundreds of thousands of professionals, by thousands of government agencies and universities, by "impossible" great landscape jobs "everywhere" by great proportion of winners of the national flowering plant societies' competitions."
See the proof? Heck, superthrive even helped us win WWII, the label says so. Not only that but "top U.S.D.A. scientists recommend it (we are not sure which one but definitely "top" ones).
*Removes tongue from cheek and gets back to work*
Anonymous User
Banned
Harry,
let me say this again, research by and for forestry departments, horticulturists, arborists, etc is done both in controlled environments and in the field by trained professionals with vastly more hands on experience than most backyard growers. Modern farming, be it trees, flowers, food crops, or whatever, is based upon such professional research. The state of research is at a higher level now than at any time in history. You can thank it for the food in your fridge to the rooting hormone or fertilizers you use, to the very grass growing in your yard, to the herbicides and pesticides you use on your bonsai. You have complete faith in all these products but attack research that goes against something you use.
Hell, I don't have to take research at face value concerning lead content in old paint, but I certainly am not going to eat some to test it out, or leave it around for my children to test.....I'll trust the research.
And again, to address your comment you felt important enough to post twice, there is no difference in the way a tree grows in a pot as compared to in the field. It grows slower due to root restriction and suffers more damage sometimes thanks to our root pruning and other clipping, but the growth processes and responses are exactly the same as is nutrient uptake and use. Plants do not magically change the way they grow or respond because they are confined to a pot.
As to your other comments, are you now claiming that superthrive somehow helps against hot days and high winds now?
The fact is that there is no solid research to support any of the claims made about superthrive. At the most, a ingredient in it may help seedlings take root, but this is not what people use it for. And the fact on this matter is that no one knows the amount (percentage) of this ingredient and even if it is an amount that would be beneficial. It is far safer to simply use a rooting hormone where you know the exact amount contained.
A simple sniff will tell anyone the main ingredient in superthrive is B-1, an ingredient that has not been shown to have a single advantage for plants, which make their own thiamine. In fact, research shows that plants did better with regular old water alone than with a B-1 solution.
Later we will get into what many bonsaists say about using superthrive on conifers.....
Will
