Swamp Chestnut Oak

[Ccome15]

Hello all, new to both the forum and Bonsai here. I had posted this in the “new to Bonsai” forum but believe it should live here.

I’ve recently (~4-5 months ago) started doing a lot of research on Bonsai, and have looked into a lot of the native species here in Louisiana. Two I have had a lot of interest in are white oak and the swamp chestnut oak and haven’t found a ton on info on either. My Aunt had given me a Swamp Chestnut Oak back in May that she’d been growing from a seeding for 2-3years, and I may have prematurely did some trimming before gathering enough info. I have read a lot since then, though this particular tree doesn’t have a lot of bonsai info out there.

These photos are before and what the tree looks like now (3-4months after trimming). The tree had three main branches/leaders at the top of its trunk. I cut all three back, but left a couple inches thinking it would die back. Wondering if I should have cut below the spot where the three met. Well a ton of new branches have exploded from these, and I’m worried in the long run there may be too many sprouts coming from the one spot.

I plan repotting into a shallow pot, and on doing some trimming before spring, but wanted to see what suggestions were out there. The base has a unique twist in it, but the lowest branch had died and started rotting which lead me to cut it backstage the time, but not off figuring I could always cut it later if needed. The tree is currently about 2 feet tall and in a pot with an inside diameter of 17 inches.

Thanks for any info you can provide!

 

[Forsoothe!]

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[Leo in N E Illinois]

This is the correct "sub-forum" for oak trees, there are many threads in this forum about oaks. Take the time to page back and read thru some of these threads. Some of the threads will be helpful.

It is best to avoid double posting the same thread, it makes for confused responses, you will end up answering the same questions twice.

For just a few years old, your seedling has a good deal of growth, this is good. Have you thought about how large a diameter trunk you would like for your tree? The larger the diameter of the trunk, relative to height of the bonsai, the older the bonsai tends to appear. Anywhere from 4 to 1, to 5 to 1 would be typical for bonsai, though there are short, squat, "sumo" bonsai where the diameter of the trunk is larger than the tree is tall. There are tall graceful "forest images" where the tree is 10 to 1 to 20 to 1 times taller than the diameter of the trunk. These tall and slender trees tend to create a "forest image" or a "younger tree image" if the tree is displayed alone. So with your oak, if I were to display it as a "lone oak" in a field or park or open prairie, I think going for a 5 to 1 ratio would be good. So if you want a 20 inch tall bonsai, you want to build the diameter of your trunk until it is around 4 inches in diameter. If the tree were to finish at 10 inches tall, the trunk would need to be around 2 inches in diameter.

While developing trunk caliper, it is important to let the tree grow with minimal pruning. That said, you do want to avoid creating problems, such as knots and bulges. I would do through the tree, and at points where you have more than 2 branches at a single point, reduce the number to 2. For example

https://www.bonsainut.com/attachments/55925fda-6e1c-4497-a01b-a305443384ab-jpeg.324898/

on the image linked above, I would cut flush, or just above the collar of buds, so nearly flush, and remove the "stubb", and reduce the number of branches here to the continuation of the trunk, and a single slender branch. Clearly this species, at least on younger stock, creates many back buds, so we will not have to worry about branches for the future. Go through the whole tree and do this, reducing knots of branches to a single branch and a continuation of the trunk. You could leave 2 branches and a continuation of the trunk, 2 branches will not create an issue quickly, there will be plenty of time to correct them later. But knots of 3 or more should be reduced.

When creating a bonsai from a seedling, it is very common to develop a trunk, first, then develop branches later, especially with deciduous trees that back bud easily. This means that when your trunk approaches the desired diameter, you may end up removing ALL the branches, and letting the tree back bud to start over. Once reason for this is that to develop a tree image, the branches need to be significantly smaller in diameter than the trunk. In shrubs, there are no trunks, all the trunks and branches are close to the same diameter up until the fine twigs at the end. In trees there is a dramatic difference between the diameters of the trunk and the branches. So branches on a seedling will likely be too "fat" to be used in the final image. So it is very normal, once the trunk diameter has been achieved to remove all the branches and start over with the fine branching.

So for now keep this tree going. No pruning other than what is needed to prevent knots from forming in the trunk. As the caliper of the trunk increases toward your goal. then you can plan your next moves.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Chilean mesquite forest from seed ~2006...

 

[Ccome15]

This is the correct "sub-forum" for oak trees, there are many threads in this forum about oaks. Take the time to page back and read thru some of these threads. Some of the threads will be helpful.

It is best to avoid double posting the same thread, it makes for confused responses, you will end up answering the same questions twice.

For just a few years old, your seedling has a good deal of growth, this is good. Have you thought about how large a diameter trunk you would like for your tree? The larger the diameter of the trunk, relative to height of the bonsai, the older the bonsai tends to appear. Anywhere from 4 to 1, to 5 to 1 would be typical for bonsai, though there are short, squat, "sumo" bonsai where the diameter of the trunk is larger than the tree is tall. There are tall graceful "forest images" where the tree is 10 to 1 to 20 to 1 times taller than the diameter of the trunk. These tall and slender trees tend to create a "forest image" or a "younger tree image" if the tree is displayed alone. So with your oak, if I were to display it as a "lone oak" in a field or park or open prairie, I think going for a 5 to 1 ratio would be good. So if you want a 20 inch tall bonsai, you want to build the diameter of your trunk until it is around 4 inches in diameter. If the tree were to finish at 10 inches tall, the trunk would need to be around 2 inches in diameter.

While developing trunk caliper, it is important to let the tree grow with minimal pruning. That said, you do want to avoid creating problems, such as knots and bulges. I would do through the tree, and at points where you have more than 2 branches at a single point, reduce the number to 2. For example

https://www.bonsainut.com/attachments/55925fda-6e1c-4497-a01b-a305443384ab-jpeg.324898/

on the image linked above, I would cut flush, or just above the collar of buds, so nearly flush, and remove the "stubb", and reduce the number of branches here to the continuation of the trunk, and a single slender branch. Clearly this species, at least on younger stock, creates many back buds, so we will not have to worry about branches for the future. Go through the whole tree and do this, reducing knots of branches to a single branch and a continuation of the trunk. You could leave 2 branches and a continuation of the trunk, 2 branches will not create an issue quickly, there will be plenty of time to correct them later. But knots of 3 or more should be reduced.

When creating a bonsai from a seedling, it is very common to develop a trunk, first, then develop branches later, especially with deciduous trees that back bud easily. This means that when your trunk approaches the desired diameter, you may end up removing ALL the branches, and letting the tree back bud to start over. Once reason for this is that to develop a tree image, the branches need to be significantly smaller in diameter than the trunk. In shrubs, there are no trunks, all the trunks and branches are close to the same diameter up until the fine twigs at the end. In trees there is a dramatic difference between the diameters of the trunk and the branches. So branches on a seedling will likely be too "fat" to be used in the final image. So it is very normal, once the trunk diameter has been achieved to remove all the branches and start over with the fine branching.

So for now keep this tree going. No pruning other than what is needed to prevent knots from forming in the trunk. As the caliper of the trunk increases toward your goal. then you can plan your next moves.

I will work on continuing the trunk and removing the excess branches. I really think I’d like this tree to be about 6”-8” shorter in the long run but would like the trunk at least another inch in diameter. I have a few others that I’m starting with as well, so I don’t over work any one. Thanks for the info!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Love, love, love. Beautiful leaves/a favorite. Unusual base could be interesting tree in time. Personal suggestion let big main trunk grow about 5-6 years to grow trunk. When big enough cut off above lower side trunk because is straight and boring and use this lower side one for new trunk. In mean time make sure lower trunk not overshadowed by upper trunks foliage so can begin development on it and keep strong.