Taking cuttings from the second flush

[ysrgrathe]

All of the literature seems to be on taking cuttings from the first flush. Is there any reason not to try taking strong growth from later flushes? My beni maiko pushed some very strong shoots, more than 12".

I was thinking these still need a couple of weeks to harden before cutting, what do people think?

 

[Paulpash]

You have nothing to lose and no frost to worry about so go for it. For us in Europe it'd be way too late. I've found semi hardwood yields the best results.

 

[0soyoung]

All of the literature seems to be on taking cuttings from the first flush. Is there any reason not to try taking strong growth from later flushes?

I think it is first flush only because this leaves the maximal amount of growing season to make and mature adventitious roots before fall. Beyond this possibility, there is no reason to avoid taking cuttings from the second flush. In fact, my best success with acer palmatums are cuttings taken in June/July, which is second flush semi-hardwood. I have zero success with softwood cuttings and a poor rate of success with hardwood cuttings (ones taken 'as buds swell').

 

[ysrgrathe]

Thanks for the input! Any thoughts on when to take these -- do you agree these are still too soft?

 

[0soyoung]

They appear hardened enough to me, just don't use the soft, last internode. The next one back is also often a bit soft, but the rest ought to be okay. The soft nodes are just more vulnerable to desiccating or being eaten by fungus in my experience.

Of course, this all comes with the disclaimer that, 'your results may vary'.

 

[Paulpash]

Spray the cuttings periodically with hydrogen peroxide @ 3%. This seems to be a good way of keeping the substrate / atmosphere moist, killing pathogens and helping to oxygenate the rhizosphere of the newly rooted cuttings. Open and spray - I use a propagator lid on top of a standard seed tray.

Here's a pic of my Arakawa cuttings. Some are pushing growth but most have buds swelling too so I'm hopeful most have taken.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Spray the cuttings periodically with hydrogen peroxide @ 3%. This seems to be a good way of keeping the substrate / atmosphere moist, killing pathogens and helping to oxygenate the rhizosphere of the newly rooted cuttings. Open and spray - I use a propagator lid on top of a standard seed tray.

Here's a pic of my Arakawa cuttings. Some are pushing growth but most have buds swelling too so I'm hopeful most have taken. View attachment 252165

How long between striking and your noticeable growth?

 

[Paulpash]

How long between striking and your noticeable growth?

6 weeks - but I live in the UK so not the warmest of countries for cuttings to take.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

I realize I am a week late here, have you already taken your cuttings? how are they doing?

Any thoughts on when to take these -- do you agree these are still too soft?

I was taught to use the 'snap test'. When you bend a branch, if it 'snaps' as opposed to folding, creasing, collapsing, etc., they are ready! I perform this test in the middle of a branch that is about 7-10 internodes long

That said, when you perform the test the internodes near the tip of the branch will not 'snap', and the internodes near the base will be tougher to snap. nonetheless, if you are getting 'snapping' near the middle of the branch, you can use as cuttings the base, middle, and tip! See picture #7 in post #334:

My Maples in Montreal

What species do you have available as natives there? I only have one in my area Acer glabrum. I have a couple, one has enough going for it as raw material that it may work out but also has enough against it that it may not. There is good material out there in the hills but very rare. Hope...

www.bonsainut.com

All of the literature seems to be on taking cuttings from the first flush

as @0soyoung said above, second flush can work very well. I have success with second flush using arakawa, kashima, and kiyo hime.

However--and I cannot explain this in terms of plant biology--some cultivars can only be done using the first flush. In my experience and based on what I was taught, these are also the cultivars (perhaps it is not a coincidence) for which it is important to use young plants. (i.e. for some cultivars, cuttings from a 10 or 15 year old specimen will not succeed at the same rate [or at all] as they would from a 3-5 year old specimen). I can confirm that Katsura and Shin Deshojo are good examples of this having done the comparison myself, but there are others. (i say this because shin deshojo might be 'related' to your beni maiko - see below).

Other than the fact that I can't explain the biology behind this, nothing mysterious is happening here. Some cultivars are easy to propagate via cuttings, others are extremely difficult or impossible. I guess some are in between

My beni maiko

see the third paragraph in post #4 here:

Beni Maiko vs. Shin Deshojo

After finally deciding on a Shin Deshojo for the east-facing front of our house, I realized it was too late in the season to find one in a local...

forums.botanicalgarden.ubc.ca

This is something I have read and seen before. Because nobody has full knowledge of the provenances of the cultivars in circulation in the north american market, nor control of propagation and the naming practices of growers and vendors, there will forever be an ambiguity (even in Japan) among red palmatums such as deshojo, beni maiko, and even seigen, and therefore a huge discrepancy when it comes to success with cuttings and different procedures and timing depending on the parent plant. I have stood at nurseries in Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Connecticut, Maryland, and New York with all 3 'cultivars' in front of me, where at least 2 if not all 3 were indistinguishable and in all likelihood of the same origin (these retailers had received them from different wholesale growers)

 

[ysrgrathe]

Thanks for the great info! I took cuttings this past weekend, will report back in a few weeks.

It's funny reading that link about Beni Maiko having an "ultimate size" of 6-8'. Mine was a ~3 year graft when planted, has been in ground 2 years and is already more than 6'!

 

[Deleted member 21616]

no problem and good luck!

Mine was a ~3 year graft when planted, has been in ground 2 years and is already more than 6'!

Yes I would never trust those heights, and i have no idea where they come from. At vineland in ontario, they have a 40 year old katsura maple that must be 75-100' tall! I circled it in the attached photo (they also have a tamukeyama that is at least 30' wide, and only 3-4' tall)

 

[ysrgrathe]

Unfortunately the 2nd flush cuttings seemed to just dry up on me. RH in the propagator was 70-80% so surprised they showed this reaction. I still have a couple that could make it but they don't look the best.

 

[Paulpash]

Softwood cuttings (in my experience) dry out far quicker than semi hardwood, especially in my heated propagator so I switched to just a bog standard dome and seed tray. I've had more success starting earlier in the season, not just in how many take, but for them to have enough of a growing season ahead so they are better able to withstand Winter then bud out the following Spring.

You never know if you don't have a go so it's not a total loss - at least you've learned from the experience.

 

[ysrgrathe]

Interesting. I might try one more set of cuttings then in the unheated dome just to see if they fare better then.

 

[ysrgrathe]

Dome / no bottom heat. After 2 weeks, these 2nd flush cuttings still look perfect (compared to the ones that all dried up in the propagator). BUT, I pulled a couple and saw no callousing, so it's possible the VPD is too low to induce rooting at 100% saturation. grr. Light levels at 50-100 PAR (ppfd) 12 hours/day. These are all beni maiko.

 

[kouyou]

Dome / no bottom heat. After 2 weeks, these 2nd flush cuttings still look perfect (compared to the ones that all dried up in the propagator). BUT, I pulled a couple and saw no callousing, so it's possible the VPD is too low to induce rooting at 100% saturation. grr. Light levels at 50-100 PAR (ppfd) 12 hours/day. These are all beni maiko.

100% humidity should not be a problem - it is always recommended by everyone i have spoken or trained with. at the 2-week mark, I would not start looking for issues just yet! in all likelihood, your beni maiko cuttings will not root before winter (this can be a slow-to-root cultivar, and first flush is therefore ideal). I still think you have two very good options available:

1) let the leaves drop, provide a frost-free winter, cross your fingers in the spring
2) skip the winter! you can use artificial light indoors to create something like 16-hour days (start ASAP - don't let them 'think' Fall is coming), using a heat matt to maintain the substrate at a minimum of 60-65F. repot as necessary. next spring summer, put them back outdoors and on your regular schedule

some people re-apply rooting hormone to cuttings every week (because it washes away), from the time of the initial cutting right up until the cuttings show any resistance to sliding out of the substrate. also, have you considered using coconut husk in your substrate? it is a natural root hormone, and doesn't wash away:

Transplanting Bare Root Cuttings Into Coconut Fiber | EZ-Clone, Inc.

www.ezclone.com

if you do decide to introduce it, make sure it says 'salt free' on the packaging itself. rinse thoroughly regardless