Taking on a Shishio/Chishio Improved Cutting

[southernleaf]

I purchased this young cutting online as a new project. This will be my second maple and I am definitely still a bonsai rookie. I’ve posted a pic of the tree as well as the planter I intend on using for the next couple of years. Reason for my post is that I want to make sure I do this very well from the beginning, avoiding easy mistakes and setting the tree up for the most success long-term. Here is my plan. Any thoughts/critique/advice would be much appreciated.

1. Thick layer of sphagnum moss at the bottom of the planter to hold water/nutrients
2. Above that, a 50/50 mix of two bonsai soil blends from TinyRoots - the deciduous blend and the organic bonsai all-purpose blend.
3. Implant a flat, hard surface beneath the rootball to encourage nebari (would cardboard work or will the roots eat right through it?)
4. Wait…watch…report back!

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Roots will punch through cardboard in weeks. Fungi will eat it too. Some people use ceramic tiles, but some wood might last long enough too.

Sphagnum as a bottom layer to me doesn't sound right. It will compact over time and once worms can get into it, it'll be degraded in less than a single season. Sphagnum does hold a lot of water, not a whole lot of nutrients; those seep out as much as they seep in.

I am not a maple fan, so I can't say much about the soil type or how to grow them.

 

[southernleaf]

Well, I ended up doing a ~1 inch layer of fertilized sphagnum at the bottom and filled the rest with the soil mix I described in the OP. I trimmed the roots a tad and put a ~3”x3” ceramic tile about 3/4 -1” beneath the root ball, with the roots flaring out in all directions underneath the top soil. Then put on an additional layer of 100% deciduous bonsai soil from TinyRoots. Will report back…

 

[southernleaf]

Roots will punch through cardboard in weeks. Fungi will eat it too. Some people use ceramic tiles, but some wood might last long enough too.

Sphagnum as a bottom layer to me doesn't sound right. It will compact over time and once worms can get into it, it'll be degraded in less than a single season. Sphagnum does hold a lot of water, not a whole lot of nutrients; those seep out as much as they seep in.

I am not a maple fan, so I can't say much about the soil type or how to grow them.

I can’t seem to keep junipers or pines alive…maples have been resilient and highly trainable in my rookie experience…

 

[Tums]

I don't understand the layer of sphagnum at the bottom. If you only have a thin layer of bonsai mix above your roots, sounds like you'll have to water frequently and the moss will stay soaked. You'll also have to fertilize the tree totally independently of the sphagnum since the roots are all at the top of the pot.

 

[SouthernMaple]

I purchased this young cutting online as a new project. This will be my second maple and I am definitely still a bonsai rookie. I’ve posted a pic of the tree as well as the planter I intend on using for the next couple of years. Reason for my post is that I want to make sure I do this very well from the beginning, avoiding easy mistakes and setting the tree up for the most success long-term. Here is my plan. Any thoughts/critique/advice would be much appreciated.

1. Thick layer of sphagnum moss at the bottom of the planter to hold water/nutrients
2. Above that, a 50/50 mix of two bonsai soil blends from TinyRoots - the deciduous blend and the organic bonsai all-purpose blend.
3. Implant a flat, hard surface beneath the rootball to encourage nebari (would cardboard work or will the roots eat right through it?)
4. Wait…watch…report back!

Thanks in advance for the help.

View attachment 415774View attachment 415775

I like to grow maples or try to think that I do...

whats your Location and USDA zone? Where do you keep the tree?

Growing bonsai for one person in one climate might be different than yours so remember that.

If you are growing your maple on the back porch of a covered apartment deck with 2 hours of direct sunlight it might not need a really moist soil and you might get by with ditching the moss, but if you are going to up pot into a larger container this year and ditch the moss when you do that I think you should be fine.

I think what you are doing is great, you have to try new things to learn.

I use spagnum moss on trees that are unhealthy/dying to promote root growth, when I am making airlayers and when I want to promote root growth after a layer if separation wasn't as bountiful as hoped.

The longer you leave spagnum moss on the roots the more of a pain they are separating them from one another.

 

[southernleaf]

I like to grow maples or try to think that I do...

whats your Location and USDA zone? Where do you keep the tree?

Growing bonsai for one person in one climate might be different than yours so remember that.

If you are growing your maple on the back porch of a covered apartment deck with 2 hours of direct sunlight it might not need a really moist soil and you might get by with ditching the moss, but if you are going to up pot into a larger container this year and ditch the moss when you do that I think you should be fine.

I think what you are doing is great, you have to try new things to learn.

I use spagnum moss on trees that are unhealthy/dying to promote root growth, when I am making airlayers and when I want to promote root growth after a layer if separation wasn't as bountiful as hoped.

The longer you leave spagnum moss on the roots the more of a pain they are separating them from one another.

Thanks, @SouthernMaple. I’m growing in central Texas - zone 8b.

The one thing I’m questioning at this point is the amount of root pruning that I did. I trimmed it back pretty good, into maybe a 4-5 inch diameter circle. Before the pruning, the roots went out 8-10 inches from the rootball, at the longest…and granted, the longest roots were pretty thin. Is there any cause for concern around that?

I ended up adding a layer of peat sphagnum moss as top soil, maybe 1-2 inches purely so that I don’t have to water it every single day in the summer. It can get north of 100 here, and dry. I am indeed growing on a covered back porch / deck, but it’s a western facing deck so the afternoon/evening summer sun can be brutal. My other maple seems to love it, but we’ll see about the Shishio. One of my goals this year is to better systematize my grows…watering every single day is unsustainable IMO…until of course I’m 60 and retired, or in any case spend my free time counting dollars at which point I can spend more time on these guys. Life.

 

[leatherback]

Pruning the roots as you did should not be a problem.

I am concerned with the muck you have created at the bottom of the pot. It will compress and get anaerobic very quickly. I would consider to redo, and if you feel you must have additional water retaining components in there, mix the spaghnum in the mix.

As for watering every day in summer is not possible.. I do not want to tell you how to organize your day but.. Do you get home every day? I have 130-175 pots here at any one time. Watering them all once takes me 20 minutes. I would expect that smaller collections take a lot less time; You get home, grab the watering can, spend 5 minutes in the garden dumping water on pots and done, spending more time on it on days you have more time..? I think most of us have either build in a routine so that every day a certain amount of time is set aside for watering, or have automated watering systems (which might be overkill for a handfull of trees).

Point being: It is hard to predict when a plant needs water. So many of us have a substrate that allows watering as frequent as we like, so when we are planning to be away for a long day, we water everything through. But also, so that we do not really have to think about it. Just keeping in mind different needs between species, and some individuals. But the bulk gets watered all in one go.

 

[southernleaf]

Pruning the roots as you did should not be a problem.

I am concerned with the muck you have created at the bottom of the pot. It will compress and get anaerobic very quickly. I would consider to redo, and if you feel you must have additional water retaining components in there, mix the spaghnum in the mix.

As for watering every day in summer is not possible.. I do not want to tell you how to organize your day but.. Do you get home every day? I have 130-175 pots here at any one time. Watering them all once takes me 20 minutes. I would expect that smaller collections take a lot less time; You get home, grab the watering can, spend 5 minutes in the garden dumping water on pots and done, spending more time on it on days you have more time..? I think most of us have either build in a routine so that every day a certain amount of time is set aside for watering, or have automated watering systems (which might be overkill for a handfull of trees).

Point being: It is hard to predict when a plant needs water. So many of us have a substrate that allows watering as frequent as we like, so when we are planning to be away for a long day, we water everything through. But also, so that we do not really have to think about it. Just keeping in mind different needs between species, and some individuals. But the bulk gets watered all in one go.

Thanks for the tips. I re-did it all without the bottom layer in there…thinking this is the final recipe for this guy. Points taken on the watering front. I’m dealing with a little PTSD after working 100+ hour weeks for 7 years and not even being able to keep a cactus alive ……..andddd I killed what was once a hearty 10 year old Sequoia Redwood last year. I’m fairly certain is was due to water/humidity issues over the summer, possibly exacerbated by high temperatures…just another reason I thought sphagnum would be a healthy addition. I will refine my process as the years go on. For now I’m young, living in an apartment, and this Shishio is only my third tree…so I’ll take all the advice I can get!

 

[southernleaf]

Buds popped out over the last week. Is it normal to have two completely different colors like this? I really like it…was just taken aback, and began wondering whether the seller may have accidentally grafted two different species…unless this is normal!

 

[penumbra]

It is not a cutting grown tree, it is grafted. The rootstock looks like a regular green JM. You need to cut that bottom growth off before it takes over and kills off the graft.

 

[southernleaf]

Thanks for the quick response. Once I cut the green JM, will the Chishio (presumably) take over the whole tree system?

 

[19Mateo83]

Thanks for the quick response. Once I cut the green JM, will the Chishio (presumably) take over the whole tree system?

You will have to stay on top of clipping any shoots that pop up on the understock but yes, that’s the idea.

 

[penumbra]

It is actually better to roll your thumb over the unwanted shoot and kinda of rip it away. Then it will be unlikely to re-sprout.

 

[ajm55555]

Thanks for the quick response. Once I cut the green JM, will the Chishio (presumably) take over the whole tree system?

It will always be a fight.

 

[penumbra]

It will always be a fight.

This is not true. There is a slim possibility it will be a skirmish but even that is not likely. I have over 40 JM cultivars that are grafted. Some of them I have had for over 30 years and some less than a year. I have no issuers with rootstock sprouts on any of them.

 

[penumbra]

It is actually better to roll your thumb over the unwanted shoot and kinda of rip it away. Then it will be unlikely to re-sprout.

To be clear, this advice is only for small new sprouts that may occur on the rootstock. The small secondary trunk you have will need to be cut away.

 

[ajm55555]

I have no issuers with rootstock sprouts on any of them.

Do you mean they don't grow on most of them or it's a minimal effort to watch for them?
With "fight" I meant you cannot forget about them.

 

[ajm55555]

I've seen a lemon (not bonsai) grafted onto a bergamot rootstock, where the owners forgot to check the sprouts, get completely wiped out.
Now it's like the lemon never existed.

 

[penumbra]

Do you mean they don't grow on most of them or it's a minimal effort to watch for them?
With "fight" I meant you cannot forget about them.

Yes and Yes.

I've seen a lemon (not bonsai) grafted onto a bergamot rootstock, where the owners forgot to check the sprouts, get completely wiped out.
Now it's like the lemon never existed.

This can and does happen to a number of plants that sucker profusely. Fortunately, JM do not.