Talent v. Technique

ovation22

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I think everyone on that list has talent. Now, if it is bonsai is another matter. ;)

Serious answer will come later. It is much too late in the work day for me to give this the proper thought, and thought will be required for this topic methinks.


Take care.
 

cascade

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Quote:

'Greatness is more than potential. It is the execution of that potential. Beyond the raw talent. You need the appropriate training. You need the discipline. You need the inspiration. You need the drive.'
Eric A. Burns

Chris,even if you have doubts,the no-talent police will not arrest you..:D

-dorothy
 

agraham

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Assuming......

Talent = Artistic Vision?

Technique = A Set of Skills?

One can obviously exhibit skills without vision.Repotting a tree without killing it,wiring and bending a branch,creating ramification,removing branches with minimal dieback and primping a tree for show are all skills that can be learned.

Choosing the best pot,placing the wired branch in the optimum position,removing the correct branch and choosing the right stand might, MIGHT require artisitic vision IF one chooses to separate oneself and the tree from the ordinary and accepted formulas.

My guess would be that talent trumps technique on rare occasions in the creation of artistic bonsai and technique trumps talent even more frequently in the creation of good bonsai.

As far as the names you mentioned....I would say that some of them display a good grasp of formulatic technique and some of them have yet to display much of either talent or technique.I could be more specific but chose not to.

I might add that there are probably some people who have both talent and the set of skills necessary to bring their vision to fruition and yet lack either the time,patience or diligence to do so.I also think that the availability of funds has an impact for those less fortunate or less dedicated.

andy

andy
 

grog

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Too new to it to say if it applies to bonsai also but in general technical knowledge and perserverance are a much more important keystone to success than talent. Also sometimes it takes a lot of knowledge and hard work to spark a deeper understanding of a subject.

Rather broad generalization perhaps but this isn't an issue which would ever have a clearly defined resolution.
 

Attila Soos

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The person with talent may be able to spot a good tree when he sees it. Some can see what it should look like in the future. But talent can not be introduced and learned. A true master’s talent will develop into a unique style. But it will sit on the shoulders of his master.

If one only have talent and no technique, it is hard to maintain and continue to improve the tree as it continues to develop.
Without a good foundation, one will have to re-invent a way to style and develop bonsai. That is a big waste of time, since the knowledge is already here. The Japanese have developed technique for several hundred years. Information is now passed on to the next generations.


This is a wonderful description, and I wouldn't even try to put it better than this. May be one thing I could add: some people have the ability to learn a lot without working under a master. You can call them self-taught. But they are a rare occurrence, since it takes an extaordinary drive and ambition to choose this way of learning.
 

John Hill

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Chris,
I know you have talent and I know you know. But the trouble to me is that most that begin bonsai frequent the internet (notice I did not say forums ;) ) They think that their talent must meet the talent of those that have learned from good old trial and error. I know because I have been at it for some time now and I still think I do not have talent.
What is Talent?? Keeping a tree alive for more then a few years? Killing trees many times? To me killing trees many times will improve your talent ;) You have done it and you have learned. You can take many opinions and try it to see if it works. This may kill a few trees but at least you have learned something from it. Am I right?? Bonsai (to me) comes with in, to be able to see the tree within the tree and work towards that goal,,wrong or right,,to be able to see into the future!! Learn how that tree grows and take it from there. If the tree does not want to go where you want to take it sit back (if you haven't killed it) and see where this tree is telling you where to take it.
Chris,,I know many us want to create that masterpiece tree!! But think about it? If you get that masterpiece tree then you must quit work quit everything that you have been used to for the last ,,who knows many years, and travel to all the bonsai shows ;) This would be awsome!! But who is going to pay the bills ;)

So Chris there are probably many out there that bonsai, that you and I will never hear of because they do it and it stays at home! They do it for the art in their souls and could give a flying fart if anyone sees it! Its only those that frequent the net that want more.
Think about it?? My glass is empty got to go get more ;)

A Friend in bonsai
John
 

irene_b

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Chris,
I know you have talent and I know you know. But the trouble to me is that most that begin bonsai frequent the internet (notice I did not say forums ;) ) They think that their talent must meet the talent of those that have learned from good old trial and error. I know because I have been at it for some time now and I still think I do not have talent.
What is Talent?? Keeping a tree alive for more then a few years? Killing trees many times? To me killing trees many times will improve your talent ;) You have done it and you have learned. You can take many opinions and try it to see if it works. This may kill a few trees but at least you have learned something from it. Am I right?? Bonsai (to me) comes with in, to be able to see the tree within the tree and work towards that goal,,wrong or right,,to be able to see into the future!! Learn how that tree grows and take it from there. If the tree does not want to go where you want to take it sit back (if you haven't killed it) and see where this tree is telling you where to take it.
Chris,,I know many us want to create that masterpiece tree!! But think about it? If you get that masterpiece tree then you must quit work quit everything that you have been used to for the last ,,who knows many years, and travel to all the bonsai shows ;) This would be awsome!! But who is going to pay the bills ;)

So Chris there are probably many out there that bonsai, that you and I will never hear of because they do it and it stays at home! They do it for the art in their souls and could give a flying fart if anyone sees it! Its only those that frequent the net that want more.
Think about it?? My glass is empty got to go get more ;)

A Friend in bonsai
John





Bravo John!!!!
Me, I don't care about showing!
Way too many Ego trippers out there.
Mom
 
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Strangely enough, I posted an uncompleted start of an article on talent in the editor section at AoB yesterday.....I will withold my the majority of my thoughts and opinions on this subject due to duplication and post the article when it is completed.

However, this subject is indeed timely and will no doubt give me much to think about and address.

I will add this though.... There are people alive today that can duplicate every brush stoke of Monet, they know every habit he had and every preference of color. They know how Monet painted better than he did himself. They have knowledge, but with all that knowledge they can not create a masterpiece of their own.

There are painters today that paint often and paint very good paintings, but they are not great, they never will be, they have all the skills, they have been taught all the techniques, they just don't have that one ingrediant that separates the craftsman from the artist.

Talent.

It can't be learned, it can't be bought, it can't be traded for or stolen, you either have it, or you don't. Period.

Talent can be developed from raw to refined, talent can be refined by learning technique, but the talent must be there to start with.

It is easy to see those with talent, it is easy to see those without, but it is always best to let the person discover their talent or lack of on their own.....besides those without will not believe you and those with will find out anyhow. Discovering your own talent or lack thereof is something everyone will do eventually.


Will
 
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irene_b

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Talent.
It can't be learned, it can't be bought, it can't be traded for or stolen, you either have it, or you don't. Period.

Talent can be developed from raw to refined, talent can be refined by learning technique, but the talent must be there to start with.

It is easy to see those with talent, it is easy to see those without, but it is always best to let the person discover their talent or lack of on their own.....besides those without will not believe you and those with will find out anyhow.
Will



I disagree on it being Stolen.....
But that is another story.
Irene
 
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I disagree on it being Stolen.....
But that is another story.

Oh please do tell, I'd like to hear how this can be done. One can steal another persons work created with talent, but the talent itself can not be stolen.

Will
 

Smoke

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Talent on its own is pointless. I know many talented deadbeats. To be truely talented and show for itself it must be accompanied by the access and means. A very good read was posted here over four years ago. Many in this debate today were not even around the forums back then.

Let us assume that somehow I was to recieve a scholorship to intern with (insert famous name of your choice). I came home and was now full of the "gift". I still need to work for a living, I still do not have the material to make my masterpiece, and I may never have the means to put my new found gift to much use. Now I have the talent but no access nor means to get it. A vicious circle and one that can only be over come with means mostly. With enough means you can buy access.

With enough means and enough access and enough time, I am sure that any person willing to dedicate his/herself to bonsai will become talented.

Talent is not always inherent, it can be learned. Talent is the manifestation of practise.

Cheers, Al
 
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Smoke

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After reading the link I posted, which I haven't done in probably three years, I found it ironic that nearly everyone in that thread no longer frequents internet bonsai forums. In fact two have passed on.

I wonder if this means anything? I also wonder if I could say I am more talented today than when I wrote that piece?

Al
 

irene_b

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Oh please do tell, I'd like to hear how this can be done. One can steal another persons work created with talent, but the talent itself can not be stolen.
Will


Yes it can!
There are only a handfull of close friends that know that story.
Irene
 

John Hill

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Al,
I went through those posts, and I seen I responded about playing in a rock roll band ;)
What is your point?

A Friend in bonsai
John
 

Smoke

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John, then you my friend are living bonsai. You must have sap in your veins!

Al
 

Vance Wood

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Oh please do tell, I'd like to hear how this can be done. One can steal another persons work created with talent, but the talent itself can not be stolen.
Will


Yes it can!
There are only a handfull of close friends that know that story.
Irene

With all due respects, it helps no one to make an assertion that talent can be stolen and then refuse to publish the proof. Unless we are talking about some metaphysical soul snatching, talent can be lost; but I don't believe it can be stolen.
 

irene_b

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With all due respects, it helps no one to make an assertion that talent can be stolen and then refuse to publish the proof. Unless we are talking about some metaphysical soul snatching, talent can be lost; but I don't believe it can be stolen.


Vance with all due Respect it can. There are many on this forum that are Educated in the Medical Field. But as I told Will it is another story and I do not feel it needs to be told here.
Irene
 

Graydon

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Talent can't be lost. Abilities or technique can diminish but the talent will remain.

Many moons ago I was fortunate to discover I had a musical gift - talent if you wish. I worked on my abilities for years and years. I was offered an opportunity to advance and polish my abilities and techniques but something happened and now I can only count to nine. I still have the talent. To this date the things I hear I see clearly in my head. Thanks to the screaming steel monster I no longer have the ability or technique.

After the incident I embraced the industry that had removed me from following what I believed was my talent. I have done well because I was able to develop my talent in to a new field. I believe I have been able to develop that talent based on developing my original talent. Applied learning.

The root of this to me is you either have and develop a talent or you simply don't have it. I guess to an extent I believe what Smoke wrote about "Talent is the manifestation of practice". Still, there are some people that will never possess that spark of creativity no matter how much they practice...
 

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