Tap vs. Distilled vs. R. Osmosis water

[BuckeyeOne]

Below are Detroits water quality numbers for 2019. The three numbers represent the High/Low/Average ppms for each value. I highlighted Total Dissolved Solids and ph.
Looks OK to me.

2019 City of Detroit Tap Water Mineral Analysis Parameter Units Max. Min. Avg. Turbidity NTU 3.40 0.03 0.22 Total Solids ppm 179 74 138 Total Dissolved Solids ppm 193 13 125 Aluminum ppm 0.361 0.007 0.061 Iron ppm 0.140 0.014 0.015 Copper ppm 0.012 0.009 0.000 Magnesium ppm 10.63 6.63 8.28 Calcium ppm 41.7 27.0 30.1 Sodium ppm 10.68 4.60 6.07 Potassium ppm 1.8 0.86 1.03 Manganese ppm 0.000 0.000 0.000 Lead ppm 0.000 0.000 0.000 Zinc ppm 0.00 0.00 0.00 Silica ppm 2.8 1.5 2.1 Sulfate ppm 33.4 18.0 24.1 Parameter Units Max. Min. Avg. Phosphorus ppm 1.44 0.23 0.49 Free Carbon Dioxide ppm 17.4 4.8 8.5 Total Hardness ppm 145 90 103 Total Alkalinity ppm 89 64 72 Carbonate Alkalinity ppm 0 0 0 Bi-Carbonate Alkalinity ppm 89 64 72 Non-Carbonate Hardness ppm 56 20 31 Chemical Oxygen Demand ppm 40 2.0 2.3 Dissolved Oxygen ppm 17.2 8.2 11.8 Chloride ppm 21.3 8.9 11.9 Nitrate Nitrogen ppm 1.60 0.21 0.41 Fluoride ppm 0.84 0.45 0.67 pH ppm 7.49 7.0 7.24 Specific Conductance @ 25 °C µohms 294 211 234 Temperature °C 24.6 1.0 12.57 These tables are based on tests conducted by GLWA in the year 2019 or the most recent testing done within the last five calendar years. GLWA conducts tests throughout the year only tests that show the presence of a substance or require special monitoring are presented in these tables.

 

[JoeR]

Not pointing fingers, but I'm reading a lot of posts from people who have never lived in an area with extremely bad water.

Southern California - high pH, hard water with moderate alkalinity, high dissolved sodium, high chloramine. Put 6" of untreated city water into a 5' deep koi pond, and watch it kill 24" koi... but it is supposed to be ok for you to drink. 8.5 pH out of the tap... going into naturally high pH soils like pumice and lava with limited/no organic matter that would naturally suppress soil pH rise. When people think about alkalinity buffering pH swings, they often lose sight of the fact that soil in containers can rapidly see their buffering capacity exhausted by repeated applications of water. Yes, the first watering might have minimal impact. But after twice daily waterings over the course of a year or more? Have you ever seen a bonsai pot in Southern California and all of the insoluble solids crusting all over its surface?

I'm not trying to knock anyone in this thread, but all tap water is not equal. And you have to consider the soil in the container as well. High pH soil and high pH water? Where do you think you are going to get your acid to drop the pH into a healthy 6.0 range so you can grow acid-loving trees like maples and oaks?

In California commercial growers will often add sulfur to the soil to lower the pH. Here in North Carolina, you will often find people adding lime to their soil to raise pH. No one would hopefully suggest that you would follow the same rules for both locations.

Just saying that I moved over 100 trees across the country from SoCal and saw the majority explode with healthy new growth - looking better than I have ever seen them. Meanwhile I had a minority of desert natives that prefered alkaline conditions that immediately went into decline. And of course... olives that didn't give a crap either way

[EDIT] Quick edit. Also understand that in some parts of the West, irrigation water makes up 95% or more of your annual bonsai water. Until you experience it, it is hard to appreciate what it is like to go 9 months straight without a DROP of rain. pH rise in container soils is probably less of an issue when 50% or more of your water comes from naturally acidic rain.[/EDIT]

Well said. Do you know what the pH of Charlotte's (or whatever city you're in) water is that allowed your trees to explode? Water was probably just one of many factors from the move that helped your trees, a break from the desert sun for one.

For what it's worth, I have to use a lab grade RODI system for my reefs, freshwater tanks, and carnivorous plants- wouldn't even consider using tap for any of them. Somehow anytime I get freshwater shrimp they die anyway though

 

[Bonsai Nut]

The take-away from this thread is any discussion of tap water for bonsai is meaningless unless you know the chemistry of your tap water. If you can't get good information from your water supplier, send a sample to a lab that tests water for horticultural use and tell the lab that the target crop is woody ornamentals.

At least in California, the municipal water utility was required to release an annual water quality report. However the focus was on "safe for human consumption" versus "optimal for irrigation".

https://www.mnwd.com/app/uploads/2020/05/MNWD-2019-Water-Quality-Report-web.pdf

Well said. Do you know what the pH of Charlotte's (or whatever city you're in) water is that allowed your trees to explode?

The biggest change is probably just the rain. Natural rainwater is now providing the majority of my trees' water.

 

[Dav4]

Well said. Do you know what the pH of Charlotte's (or whatever city you're in) water is that allowed your trees to explode? Water was probably just one of many factors from the move that helped your trees, a break from the desert sun for one.

For what it's worth, I have to use a lab grade RODI system for my reefs, freshwater tanks, and carnivorous plants- wouldn't even consider using tap for any of them. Somehow anytime I get freshwater shrimp they die anyway though

My tap water is good enough to use with all of my carnivorous plants

 

[JoeR]

My tap water is good enough to use with all of my carnivorous plants

Interesting. Are they in pots or the ground? I think I've seen you post about saraccenia, but I dont know what else you grow. I occasionally use tap water if im in a rush, but use the rodi water most of the time. Its really the buildup of nutrients to worry about, which can be resolved by just flushing the pot occasionally with distilled water.

 

[Forsoothe!]

The water intake of the Detroit system is deep in Lake Huron north of Port Huron. It's as good as any that doesn't come from an artesian well, most of which can only supply limited amounts anyway. The problems suffered in Flint were caused by electing to stop using Detroit's water and use the Flint river as a source and political friends as operators to process it. GIGO A person living in a very old building anywhere may have problems with their own systems' pipes, all having nothing to do with the Detroit water quality.

 

[Chris85]

The water intake of the Detroit system is deep in Lake Huron north of Port Huron. It's as good as any that doesn't come from an artesian well, most of which can only supply limited amounts anyway. The problems suffered in Flint were caused by electing to stop using Detroit's water and use the Flint river as a source and political friends as operators to process it. GIGO A person living in a very old building anywhere may have problems with their own systems' pipes, all having nothing to do with the Detroit water quality.

Exactly. That’s part of my concern and why I brought it up. I’m not AS concerned with the city’s water as I am with my own old apartment buildings pipes. I guess I need to get a ph kit and do some testing...

 

[Dav4]

Interesting. Are they in pots or the ground? I think I've seen you post about saraccenia, but I dont know what else you grow. I occasionally use tap water if im in a rush, but use the rodi water most of the time. Its really the buildup of nutrients to worry about, which can be resolved by just flushing the pot occasionally with distilled water.

So, my outdoor in pots and in ground plants include sarracenia , venus fly traps, and sundews. I've got a bunch of tropical pitchers that get only tap all winter long. My tap water tds is only 60 ppm, which I think is key for these guys.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

So, my outdoor in pots and in ground plants include sarracenia , venus fly traps, and sundews. I've got a bunch of tropical pitchers that get only tap all winter long. My tap water tds is only 60 ppm, which I think is key for these guys.

How do you winter your VFT?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nothing like actual data from the actual source of water in discussion. Thanks @BuckeyeOne

Below are Detroits water quality numbers for 2019. The three numbers represent the High/Low/Average ppms for each value. I highlighted Total Dissolved Solids and ph.
Looks OK to me.

2019 City of Detroit Tap Water Mineral Analysis Parameter Units Max. Min. Avg. Turbidity NTU 3.40 0.03 0.22 Total Solids ppm 179 74 138 Total Dissolved Solids ppm 193 13 125 Aluminum ppm 0.361 0.007 0.061 Iron ppm 0.140 0.014 0.015 Copper ppm 0.012 0.009 0.000 Magnesium ppm 10.63 6.63 8.28 Calcium ppm 41.7 27.0 30.1 Sodium ppm 10.68 4.60 6.07 Potassium ppm 1.8 0.86 1.03 Manganese ppm 0.000 0.000 0.000 Lead ppm 0.000 0.000 0.000 Zinc ppm 0.00 0.00 0.00 Silica ppm 2.8 1.5 2.1 Sulfate ppm 33.4 18.0 24.1 Parameter Units Max. Min. Avg. Phosphorus ppm 1.44 0.23 0.49 Free Carbon Dioxide ppm 17.4 4.8 8.5 Total Hardness ppm 145 90 103 Total Alkalinity ppm 89 64 72 Carbonate Alkalinity ppm 0 0 0 Bi-Carbonate Alkalinity ppm 89 64 72 Non-Carbonate Hardness ppm 56 20 31 Chemical Oxygen Demand ppm 40 2.0 2.3 Dissolved Oxygen ppm 17.2 8.2 11.8 Chloride ppm 21.3 8.9 11.9 Nitrate Nitrogen ppm 1.60 0.21 0.41 Fluoride ppm 0.84 0.45 0.67 pH ppm 7.49 7.0 7.24 Specific Conductance @ 25 °C µohms 294 211 234 Temperature °C 24.6 1.0 12.57 These tables are based on tests conducted by GLWA in the year 2019 or the most recent testing done within the last five calendar years. GLWA conducts tests throughout the year only tests that show the presence of a substance or require special monitoring are presented in these tables.

I've added bold font to the important measurement in the repot. There are several ways to describe the buffer capacity of the water, and it is the buffer capacity of the water that determines its usefulness for horticulture. Total Alkalinity is reported in milligrams per liter as calcium carbonate. This is the most common way to measure buffer capacity, or the degree to which the water resists changes in pH. This report says Detroit municipal water averages 89 mg/l as calcium carbonate as total alkalinity. THIS IS EXCELLENT water for most horticultural uses. This reflects the fact that Lake Erie, or Lake St. Claire where Detroit gets its water, is largely water from Lake Superior. It is good water. Any buffer capacity or Total Alkalinity under 250 mg/liter as calcium carbonate is just fine for a wide range of plants, orchids, bonsai, and landscape. Your Detroit water, can be used without adjusting pH, because the plants will easily be able to buffer the pH in their root zones into a favorable range. In fact adjusting the pH has the risk of making the water less suitable for the trees. Hobby pH meters are often wildly inaccurate, and you can easily adjust your pH way out of bounds and the meter would leave you thinking you did it "just right". Just relax. The problem you are seeing with your indoor plants and indoor bonsai has nothing to do with your tap water. Start looking at what else has changed. What is different from the old place?

 

[Dav4]

How do you winter your VFT?

So, I have some in a bog garden built into the hill in my yard- they fend for themselves, though I might through some leaves over them if it were to get real cold. I have several in pots that sit on the ground next to my trees... they would definitely get leaves tossed onto them if it were to fall into the teens.

 

[Paradox]

yea I forgot about the carnivorous plants. I used to have a buchn of venus fly traps that I had for a few years.
I had to give them RO water because the tap water wasnt good for them. I used to overwinter mine in a garage and they did fine for a few years.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Exactly. That’s part of my concern and why I brought it up. I’m not AS concerned with the city’s water as I am with my own old apartment buildings pipes. I guess I need to get a ph kit and do some testing...

The pH is the least of your problems.

 

[Alain BERTRAND]

You guys ever think about the pH of your substrate?
Quick look at bonsai jack.com pumice 8.63 and lava rock 9.22 pH

Pumice and lava rock are completely inert at the time scale involved in bonsai growing. They don't change the pH of the water inside the pot.

 

[leatherback]

Why is this water always such an issue?
Do you get your water directly from the pump in the water lines? Do the watercompanies not clean it before sending it? e.g., https://www.kwrwater.nl/en/actueel/is-it-good-to-further-purify-your-drinking-water-at-home/

 

[Bnana]

You're used to good water (as am I). But in many areas the quality is very bad. Especially in the US where mostly surface water is used and lead pipes are common.

For some uses tap water can contain too much silicates (sale water aquaria) or calcium (carnivorous plants). But for bonsai that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[clem]

Why is this water always such an issue?

For Ryan Neil, water quality was an essential point to buy his Mirai property : "Believe it or not, the deal clincher for Mirai was actually the water quality. The day we got the water quality test back, that was the day i signed the papers to close on the property" .

Look at 9'20

I bought recently a cistern to collect rain water, because i'm fed up with limestone deposit on the base of my trees (i have 500mg/L limestone on my tap water)

 

[Lumaca]

In all seriousness... I have purchased distilled water before (when in SoCal) to use in a planted freshwater aquarium. There are a lot of people on this site who are aquarium aficionados. Go ahead and try to have a marine reef aquarium in SoCal without a lab-grade reverse osmosis filtration unit for your makeup water. Let me know how it turns out

I am not familiar with "makeup water", but I remember my father buying seawater for the marine aquarium. Can you add filtration water to it?

 

[Bnana]

You can filter tap water with a R/O filter and strip it of nearly al minerals and add synthetic sea-salt. That way you get artificial sea-water. That's how I do it.
Buying seawater is a hassle.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I am not familiar with "makeup water", but I remember my father buying seawater for the marine aquarium. Can you add filtration water to it?

Makeup water is what you use to replace pure water lost to evaporation. You want it to be as close to distilled purity as possible. You are using the water to "makeup" for evaporation.

You use saltwater (either seawater, or a freshwater/salt blend) when first filling your aquarium, or when you are doing water changes - when you remove a quantity of old saltwater and replace it with "new" saltwater. This reduces dissolved organics and replaces trace minerals that are used up by the system (primarily through biological processes by your flora and fauna).