Smoke
Ignore-Amus
... and in your mind would this be the optimum time for pruning??
Teach me about "Hardening Off"
- Thread starter Smoke
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... and in your mind would this be the optimum time for pruning??
TN_Jim
Omono
To answer your question. Yes.
I have subscribed to the idea of leaf-hardening. This thread has made me reconsider it. That said, I know shit to nothing about bonsai compared to you or pretty much everyone posting comments here. Sincerely, thank you.
However, whatever the hell is hardening?..
BOTANICALLY....<-- that.. it seems that soft leaf push would be the ideal time to prune. This time is when hormones (as well as other resources; re-diverted from meristems?..) are fully active and communicating within a plant, explaining where it is, and what it is like in the present outside world... and 'hardening' off is the result of this annual interplay along with the sun moon wind rain and dirt in slow time...as in the plant is making decisions..not seeping sugars from cuts, but feeling cuts and making decisions to partition available resources.
I have never..cut back a tomato to make it branch/fork in the dog days of summer, but I would happily do this now while the plant is vigorous in development and allocating its resources.
A hardened leaf makes the most amount of sugar, perhaps. It is an energy machine, even in the fullest sun. Take it away (cut), and the tree will replace it with hopefully multiple smaller leaves/branches that replace the resources it has lost...regardless, a fully mature leaf, it seems to me, chemically 'tells' a plant and its meristems..we're good here right?..should we have sex with other trees, ourself, or store energy?.. Is this accurate typically (deciduous)?? .. oh we just got chopped off, good thing there are other hard leaves around to store energy or make gametes because thats how we are flowing through the season naturally, rather than pushing new growth....
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Interesting, now that the forum seems to playing nice we can move along in the quest to educate. So now I introduce a new wrinkle
If it were optimum or maybe the best time to prune after the plants hardens off, then would the best time to defoliate be August?
I truly know the answer to this, but hope to hear from the harden off people about the best time to defoliate.
I’ll give you my ideas on this and then the others can convince me otherwise. My answer works for my climate and growing season. It’s not for everyone though it could be modified to work in other places. My trees begin waking up in the last week of February. I have leaves by March10. My first pruning begin around March 15 and continue DAILY until about now. It is at this point that I let the tree rest for the next two weeks. Continue fertilizing strong even now. Triple 16 cold water soluable in a every watering injector at 17:1 ratio.
Around first week June, usually after my yearly visit to my old teacher Katsume Kinoshita in Monterey Ca. This year the exhibit in June 3. We will stay with my future sister in law who lives there and attend the show on Sunday
When I get home I will begin the arduous task of defoliation on the only trees I deem worthy of the task. It’s only three trees and they are all maples. I will not do the very large trident because it is still fragile from last years sprinkler incident. I will defoliate those three and fine prune them From the three months of hedging. Yes trees that have been hedged do require maintenance.
This defoliation will be done on top of all this almost daily pruning. This work done on green stems so fragile that one would think they should just droop and give up. They don’t. They are so strong and full of energy that the defoliation is in full leaf by about June 20. That is it for the year for the maples.
NOW IS WHEN THE TREE HARDENS OFF. THIS IS WHEN THE FOLIAGE WILL GET HARD AND LEATHERY AND ALMOST CRACK WITH CELLULOSE.
I have worked the tree hard. It has made branches and made leaves for three months. Then it just rests for nine months to do it all over again next year. If they had legs they would run in Feb. when they see me coming with the shears.
If it were optimum or maybe the best time to prune after the plants hardens off, then would the best time to defoliate be August?
I truly know the answer to this, but hope to hear from the harden off people about the best time to defoliate.
I’ll give you my ideas on this and then the others can convince me otherwise. My answer works for my climate and growing season. It’s not for everyone though it could be modified to work in other places. My trees begin waking up in the last week of February. I have leaves by March10. My first pruning begin around March 15 and continue DAILY until about now. It is at this point that I let the tree rest for the next two weeks. Continue fertilizing strong even now. Triple 16 cold water soluable in a every watering injector at 17:1 ratio.
Around first week June, usually after my yearly visit to my old teacher Katsume Kinoshita in Monterey Ca. This year the exhibit in June 3. We will stay with my future sister in law who lives there and attend the show on Sunday
When I get home I will begin the arduous task of defoliation on the only trees I deem worthy of the task. It’s only three trees and they are all maples. I will not do the very large trident because it is still fragile from last years sprinkler incident. I will defoliate those three and fine prune them From the three months of hedging. Yes trees that have been hedged do require maintenance.
This defoliation will be done on top of all this almost daily pruning. This work done on green stems so fragile that one would think they should just droop and give up. They don’t. They are so strong and full of energy that the defoliation is in full leaf by about June 20. That is it for the year for the maples.
NOW IS WHEN THE TREE HARDENS OFF. THIS IS WHEN THE FOLIAGE WILL GET HARD AND LEATHERY AND ALMOST CRACK WITH CELLULOSE.
I have worked the tree hard. It has made branches and made leaves for three months. Then it just rests for nine months to do it all over again next year. If they had legs they would run in Feb. when they see me coming with the shears.
Rodrigo
Shohin
So during the daily pruning you're just hedge pruning for silhouette, cutting through leaves and all, right? I don't think my trees would have anything new for me to prune yet a day after I just pruned it, much less pruning it every day.. I'd like to give it a shot though, don't have anything to lose and lots to learn.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Because there are more people on this forum than those that put others on ignore. I do enjoy reading the different viewpoints and drawing my own conclusions from those.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
@Smoke In a nutshell are you asking 'when is the ideal time to defoliate & how do you know this? How does this technique fit in with others discussed earlier?'
We are diametrically opposed in terms of season length & timing for most critical bonsai tasks but I guess my take might be useful for those with similar two week growing seasons
We are diametrically opposed in terms of season length & timing for most critical bonsai tasks but I guess my take might be useful for those with similar two week growing seasons
grouper52
Masterpiece
In the final days of my practice before I retired recently, an older male patient with a spry personality brought in this gem he found somewhere on the internet:
"There comes a time in every man's life when he is tired of the drama, and he will accept no more. He will fight only when he must, but he will use every weapon in his vast arsenal ... and he won't fight fair. Don't poke the old man!"
Don't poke us old men, you young whipper snappers!
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Your growing season is long.
Since I mainly work with elms I know nothing of hardening off or defoliating. Maybe I just know nothing.
I cut them back when they need it. Since they continually grow here they are never truly hardened off. Guess I never thought of hardening off. Till a couple days ago.
And from continuous clipping more branches appear with smaller leaves.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
I don't think you give yourself enough credit, Mike. I'm surprised you've never had a go at defoliating elms - they are as responsive to this as TM. It's a pretty shit task though tbh (boring) and is sped up a lot by just using your fingers & pulling in the right direction.
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grouper52
Masterpiece
Transcendental Meditation? Who knew!
Paulpash
Masterpiece
LOL. BTW did you take your cryptomeria with you or have they been sold?
grouper52
Masterpiece
Everything I had, in terms of actual trees, were either acquired by Dan Robinson to include in his Elandan Garden collection (he asked for about 20 of them, as I recall - a great honor), or were sold or given away to local friends. I cannot import trees legally here as far as I know, or if I could the regulatory delays would have been lethal to them during transit. I brought a few unused pots which just arrived, and most of my tools, most of which also just arrived. I'm now in the slow process of recreating a sizable collection of trees and starter material - it's exciting to do so anew, but I miss my old trees sometimes, like I do my old friends.
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Amen to that, old timer! ?
Very true.
Paulpash
Masterpiece
Hardening off in layman's terms.
Use your eyes - the foliage goes a darker / deeper colour.
Use your fingers - the leaf itself changes consistency, going from soft and a little floppy to waxy / tougher. Unhardened leaves tear easily.
Use your eyes - the foliage goes a darker / deeper colour.
Use your fingers - the leaf itself changes consistency, going from soft and a little floppy to waxy / tougher. Unhardened leaves tear easily.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
That's so true. As I get older,slower and weaker I know to go for the kill as soon as I can. Any way I can.
Maybe I'll try denuding one this year.
I planted about 100 American elm seeds this year so in the coming years I'll have a lot of those to play with.
defra
Masterpiece
This whole discussion made me just prune my little boxwood whilst i was normaly going to wait till the leaves "hardened"
To see the difference for myself i have another small same variety boxwood wich i will prune after the "hardening" to see if i will notice any difference.
To see the difference for myself i have another small same variety boxwood wich i will prune after the "hardening" to see if i will notice any difference.
just.wing.it
Deadwood Head
Rolling the boxwood dice!
Hahaha!
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Hackberry tree says prune one month after fertiliser feed,
Pruned tree takes about two weeks and begins to grow.
Grow for a month and fertilise, Hackberry says prune
me.
Repeat for a third time, and tree says no more.
Time to store energy.
Result - large wound gets smaller.
Fine branching begins to evolve.
Branches that remain around November and are needle
thin, will not survive the fridge.
Not sure where all this discussion is supposed to go?
Defoliation is for trees at the fine stage of branchlet
refinement.
So the above practice may end up leafless.
But defoliation is for trees at the max of refinement.
When all you are growing is fine branchlets.
Hackberry says be there is about 5 or so more years.
Gotta love Grow and Clip, no wires to deal with, no
metal to melt and draw out. Bah humbug.
Later.
Anthony
Images to follow
Pruned tree takes about two weeks and begins to grow.
Grow for a month and fertilise, Hackberry says prune
me.
Repeat for a third time, and tree says no more.
Time to store energy.
Result - large wound gets smaller.
Fine branching begins to evolve.
Branches that remain around November and are needle
thin, will not survive the fridge.
Not sure where all this discussion is supposed to go?
Defoliation is for trees at the fine stage of branchlet
refinement.
So the above practice may end up leafless.
But defoliation is for trees at the max of refinement.
When all you are growing is fine branchlets.
Hackberry says be there is about 5 or so more years.
Gotta love Grow and Clip, no wires to deal with, no
metal to melt and draw out. Bah humbug.
Later.
Anthony
Images to follow
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Celtis l.
As it comes out of the fridge.[99]1st April
[2 ] After pruning [99 ]for May
[3] Repotted and defoliated.
[4 ] Full leaf [ 2002 ]
and death as house build claims it's first victim.
The tree shown before is a root that survived the
fridge death,
AND we start over.....................
Height was about 14 inches.
As it comes out of the fridge.[99]1st April
[2 ] After pruning [99 ]for May
[3] Repotted and defoliated.
[4 ] Full leaf [ 2002 ]
and death as house build claims it's first victim.
The tree shown before is a root that survived the
fridge death,
AND we start over.....................
Height was about 14 inches.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Found 1 more
