Test

[Emrys]

Advice on newly collected and already poorly boxed material/Betula and Ulmus.

Hi all!

I'm new to this forum and new to the Bonsai Arts. I am however a longtime enthusiast, having been studying the techniques and practice academically off and on for many years now. What has kept me from taking up the physical practice until about a year ago has been a lack of outdoor space. Two years ago my wife and I bought and renovated a house in Brooklyn Ny with a back yard!!!! Having left gardening behind in Napa Ca when we relocated in 2005 I was eager to get my hands back into the dirt.

With the mention of dirt I will try and ask my first series of questions. But first a bit of explanation. Last summer I came across a very exciting add on Craig's list; someone was selling his field grown trees for almost nothing. As a self proclaimed "small tree" nut but not a Bonsai practitioner per se, he has been growing trees with the knowledge of annual above and below ground pruning. His interest wasn't waining, his space was just diminishing and wanted to purge I visited in Aug. and both of us knowing it was not the right time for collection I paid him his asking price for a Silver Birch and a Chinese elm, both approx. 10 years old (he had them since they were seedlings) and arranged to return to Long Island to collect them in late fall after leaf drop. In the mean time I continued to study. I have read and reread the organic soil vs inorganic medium debates over and over. My idea upon collection was to bring some pre sifted calcined clay or Diatomaceous Earth such as Turface and mix it with the very loamy soil that the trees were currently growing in. And that is what I ended up doing. Now to the first concern. Even after reviewing all the data on soil composition, particle size and container size I believe I have made two drastic errors.

1. Ratio of calcined clay to soil to low.
2. Size of the recover boxes planted into too big.( on the birch especially.)

Question!!!!! Finally. I hope some of you are still reading.

1. Should I just let them get though the winter and watch them recover a year before trying to amend the soil and container issues knowing that the conditions aren't ideal.
2. Would it be unsafe to repot into better containers and soil composition in say Late March early April, if and whenever I see buds swelling, post late frost risk?

My intuition ( the only thing I have other than the Internet ) is torn. I feel like the safe thing to do is just let them be and wait to see them get at least somewhat established before disturbing them again. But the perfectionist in me wants to optimize their health by giving them the best start in containers they can get. But if disturbing them too early is a step in the wrong direction I want to wait.

Advice??? See pics

Thanks for reading

 

[GrimLore]

My Wife and I had a similar situation with an expensive decorative maple that we put in a nice pot 3 years ago. In her excitement to put it in the pot we both overlooked the fact it had no drain hole and the soil mix we choose was not correct at all. Well The first Summer it was simply "ok" and seemed to require no water Well at seasons end we unpotted it and dried it out a bit and I drilled proper drainage and set it aside to winter. The following Spring is when when corrected the soil. None of that killed the tree and it has been fine and "growing" properly. Basically I think just prior to those plants waking up in the Spring would be the best time to change out soil mix.

 

[Stan Kengai]

That's a tough call, and ultimately it's up to you. But here are some tips and things to consider.

1. By digging in the late fall (and removing a good portion of the roots) you have removed a lot of the trees' stored energy. Typically when people talk about fall planting or transplanting, they're referring to moving from container to ground or container to container with little to no root disturbance. The reason bonsai are root pruned just before bud break is because at that time, the plant is in the process of transferring energy from the roots to the upper portions (so energy storage is maximized).

2. Since the trees were dormant or almost dormant when they were dug, they've most likely put out very few new roots (or none). Probably not a lot of detriment in moving them without disturbing the field soil around the roots.

3. The containers they are in are FAR too deep. The containers only need to be as deep as the rootball you dug (2-4 inches). If the containers are open on the bottom and in direct contact with the ground (raised planters), the ground will wick the water out of the container, allowing them to dry (albeit it slowly). If the containers have bottoms, especially solid bottoms, the roots will surely rot from never being able to dry.

4. Just like most other material collected from the ground, you should not remove all of the field soil at once (called bare-rooting), especially with this loamy looking soil. Give the tree a year or two to issue new roots outside of the field soil.

5. Remove any soil that you placed on top of the original field soil. It is unnecessary and will only add to the problem of the field soil staying wet.

Good luck with these. They look to be pretty good bonsai material.

 

[Poink88]

First of all Welcome to BNut!!!
2nd, both are awesome...you should go back and buy more!

Re: your questions. IF it were mine, I will leave them be for a season and re-work next spring. Disturbing the growing roots now (you will be amazed how much they grow from fall to now) may kill your tree.

 

[Poink88]

Just saw Stan's post and our response re: roots seems contradicting so I will qualify mine that it is based on my experience here (Austin, TX) which is much warmer than where you are. Root growth is much slower (or ceases) in colder weather.

 

[Dav4]

I will have to disagree with Stan. If these were conifers, I would suggest a slower pace to removing the feild soil, spread over 2-3 re-pots. With deciduous trees, I have always bare rooted the trees at collection (maples and crabs, specifically), typically early spring, and they have all done well. That field soil will turn into a gooey mess that will stagnate root development close to the trunk, imo. Personally, I'd bare root this spring and get into better soil. Sorry to muddy the waters. Good luck.

Dave

ps FWIW, I have noticed with my own deciduous trees that they would continue to grow roots out of the bottom of their nursery containers when mulched into the floor of my garage for the winter in zone 6 MA...I suspect dormant or near dormant trees can still put on a descent amount of root growth during the fall and winter, as long as the soil isn't frozen.

 

[rockm]

If the soil remains below 40 F or so, there is NO root growth.

 

[ghues]

Hi Emrys, WELCOME to the "nuthouse".
Like most things you'll going to get different advice on this topic….but I think that like most things “Bonsai” patience is and must be a virtue we adhere too.
Stan has given you the some great advise …..if those were mine I’d feed them well through 2013 and think about repotting in 2014 (or maybe 2015).
The Elm seems to have some nice movement….good finds and good luck.
Cheers Graham

 

[Emrys]

Thanks!!

Thanks everyone.

I have the patience I'm just concerned with giving them a good start.

I think I am most concerned with the Betula ( an exact Id would be great) because of the depth of the box. It does have lots of drainage holes and isn't sitting directly on the ground. But it just seems too deep. After reading all the advise is it safe to say that putting it into a shallower container without doing too much to the root ball this year is safe??

And poink88. He has many many more and he is willing to let me keep digging. It's kind of a gold mine for a beginner like myself.

 

[Beng]

We're in the same zone, I'm a bit late to respond so i'm pretty sure you've already made your decision. Nice craigslist finds, what did you decide?

Unless you have the ability to protect your trees from below freezing temps this winter I wouldn't repot it. When pruning in the spring your tree will redevelop new feeder roots daily. When pruning in the late fall/winter your tree will produce almost no new roots. Growth more or less stops when temps fall below 40 and doesn't start again for most species until average temps are consistently above 40. I repotted one tree this fall out of necessity, but I didn't do any root pruning and i've kept night time temps above 38 all winter. In the spring i'll root prune it and move it to it's new pot.

Wait a few more weeks till you see signs that your trees are about to leaf out. I have a larch, a maple, and a Ume all on the verge of this stage. Dormant buds will begin to show a lighter color on the tip, sometimes this color is yellow, white, or green. When most nights minimum temperature is above 34 degrees and the bud's have started to move then it'll be safe to repot.

You're on the right track if your looking for local ingredients, Diatomaceous Earth or Turface are just about your only local options. I buy all my soil online or when i'm out of town as there's pretty much nothing local to us other then the above 2 components.

My soil mix for this spring is Akadama, Pumice, and Kiryu, with a bit of charcoal. It's a east coasters boon mix as Lava isn't local and Pumice is. I buy my Kiryu from Wee Tree and Akadama is pretty hard to find now. I may also be adding Orchiata bark to the mix for my maples as well as a few other deciduous trees this year.

 

[Emrys]

Update #1

I apologies for the bad pictures but I wanted to post an update on these two collected trees. They seem to be ok for now. I decided in mid April to remove them from the original field soil they were collected in and move them into smaller boxes. I potted them in 100% inorganic soil and have been feeding them well. I will post an update in a few years whether they live or not.

Thanks for reading and looking.

Emrys

 

[Emrys]

Identity Crisis

Oh. Over on Another forum there has been some speculation that what I was told I was collecting by the pervious owner/grower is not Chinese Elm but in fact some kind of Hornbeam. Possibly Hop Hornbeam??? Anyone willing to take a crack at identification??

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Looks like hornbeam to me.

 

[Beng]

Leaves look healthy they should do fine in the new mix. That was brave to pot them the spring after but they don't seem to have skipped a beat! I'll take a pic of my hornbeams leaves tomorrow If I don't forget so you can see for comparison. Mines korean but they are similar.

 

[Beng]

Just did a little googling since it's dark out and I can't get a good picture. But I came across this page which looks a lot like your trees leaves. http://southeastgarden.com/ostrya.html

Called hop hornbeam, it sounds like they flower by creating catkins. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrya_virginiana Drought tolerant too which should make it relatively easy to take care of.

 

[Emrys]

Hop Hornbeam is what I've been told it might be, otherwise known as Ironwood. But the bark is still a a bit questionable?? The grower did say "Korean Elm"and told me he bought it from a Bonsai nursery. From what I can find there is no Korean Elm. Could he have been confused and in fact it's Korean Hornbeam? It was grown from a seedling. Not sure if that means anything or not.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I'd say Korean hornbeam (likely C. koreana, or possibly C. turczaninovii). Could be European hornbeam (C. betulus). Here is my C. koreana in leaf. The bark on mine is smoother because its an older collected tree, I have seen C. Koreana bark that is rougher like yours when still younger (15-30 years). Later it starts to smooth out and look more like a birch, but with vertical "stripes".

 

[Beng]

 

[Beng]

Forgot to take a pic of the bark but those are leaves of my Korean hornbeam.... Tried to take pics of them in various stages. You'll see that the new leaves come in with a slight red tinge to the edges.

 

[Emrys]

Resolution reached

Thanks guys! I am convinced now that it is some kind of Hornbeam. I will keep posting updates.