The best medium for starting seeds.

sparklemotion

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Here are two pictures of a sampling of the over 500 JBP I have germinated in the manner i described.

I think we might be talking at crossed purposes here. I thought that you were saying that "play sand" was a source for "sharp sand."

My understanding is that sharp sand is "supposed" to be coarser, but I agree that play sand can be of use for germination.
 

River's Edge

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When you cut the seedling for radial roots, where exactly do you cut? Do you cut once only?
The original instructions from the bonsai today article are incorrect or poorly translated on this point. The color change of the stem is unreliable and can happen too soon or not at all. I time the cut, when the stem begins to extend after the second set of leaves is in place.This usually occurs approx 2 months after germination .
Cut the stem approximately 1 " below the first set of leaves. Cut on a damp flat board using a new single sided razor blade such as the replacement blades for scrapers. The cut is to be made flat with a pulling accross the stem motion not pushing down. The intent is to make as clean a cut as possible without damaging the cell structure in the stem. Then dip the cut end in rooting compound, gel type #3. Use a short length of straight wire of slightly larger diameter than the cut stem. Poke a hole in the sand about 3/4 inch deep. Not too deep you would like the cut end to touch the bottom of the hole not sit in an ait pocket. Make sure the fine substrate is deeper than this so the stem does not project into the coarser substrate. It helps to dampen the sand first so the grains do not collapse in the hole before the stem is placed. Set the stem gently in the hole. When the group of seedling cuttings are in place then lightly misting the surface causes the sand to compact around the stems leaving no air pockets and ensuring moisture remains around the stem and cut end.
I only cut once.
Have fun, hope i remembered all the details. Don't hesitate to ask.
 

River's Edge

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Something like this but with sphagnum moss sprinkled over the top ?
View attachment 170327
I use a deeper layer of the fine substrate. my proportions are 1 1/2 inch fine on top of 2 1/2 medium and then 1/2 inch of coarse.
the reason i go with a bit deeper layer of fine is to retain a little more moisture at the intial root level.
 

River's Edge

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@kingsville grower Was sharing some photos on Facebook of some seedlings that he had cut three times in the first year. Each time the seedlings got a little bulkier at the root line...

View attachment 170368
That's real interesting! Do you know if he severed all roots off each time or cut back the roots. The picture appears to show stem remaining in the middle?
 

Bonsai Nut

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That's real interesting! Do you know if he severed all roots off each time or cut back the roots. The picture appears to show stem remaining in the middle?

He says he roots it, then shortens the stem and roots it again, then shortens the stem a third time until he is all the way up at the first needles. He says the seedling gets really swollen.

24774852_720848258123550_1753505119903932579_n.jpg

He is selling 18 month old seedlings on Facebook Bonsai Auctions right now and they look like this:

24862306_721607678047608_1541871880585020610_n.jpg
 
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I follow him on fb for a while now. It takes some time to browse across his posts. He does cut of all the roots 3 times. Keep in mind he does have a heated greenhouse and bottom heat. This spring i will cut some seedlings once (did that before). Others i will cut twice, and a smaller portion will be cut a third time. In 2019 when repotting i hope to know if there is a difference. I don't know if there will eventually be a difference between the results long term. The root pad is build up by pruning, but it is never bad to start with a perfect base. You can always make it less perfect down the road when the roots are just too much.
 

River's Edge

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He says he roots it, then shortens the stem and roots it again, then shortens the stem a third time until he is all the way up at the first needles. He says the seedling gets really swollen.

View attachment 170379

He is selling 18 month old seedlings on Facebook Bonsai Auctions right now and they look like this:

View attachment 170380
It would be real interesting to see if the flare at the base continues proportionately as the tree grows. It is great that people are trying differrent approaches, variations and taking the time to share the results. Thanks for mentioning it, i am one of those who are not on facebook.
 

River's Edge

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I follow him on fb for a while now. It takes some time to browse across his posts. He does cut of all the roots 3 times. Keep in mind he does have a heated greenhouse and bottom heat. This spring i will cut some seedlings once (did that before). Others i will cut twice, and a smaller portion will be cut a third time. In 2019 when repotting i hope to know if there is a difference. I don't know if there will eventually be a difference between the results long term. The root pad is build up by pruning, but it is never bad to start with a perfect base. You can always make it less perfect down the road when the roots are just too much.
For a comparison it would be interesting to take another group after the first stem cut and shorten the roots, 2 more times in the first year. That might create a larger root ball and thus larger base as well. Without the setback of waiting for the roots to start all over again. Just an idea.
 

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It might be more sensible /efficient, to simply take the young shoots as they do in
Australia and just set them as cuttings.
This would be the young shoots on the older trees.

By pass the seedlings.

Additionally on our older trees from seed, the radial roots developed as
surface roots naturally. [ ages 30 to 28 approx. ]

As I have said before, we use the root cutting technique on Tamarinds
for very low branching ability [ as in the use for mame' ]
Not for radial rooting.
Good Day
Anthony
 

River's Edge

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It might be more sensible /efficient, to simply take the young shoots as they do in
Australia and just set them as cuttings.
This would be the young shoots on the older trees.

By pass the seedlings.

Additionally on our older trees from seed, the radial roots developed as
surface roots naturally. [ ages 30 to 28 approx. ]

As I have said before, we use the root cutting technique on Tamarinds
for very low branching ability [ as in the use for mame' ]
Not for radial rooting.
Good Day
Anthony
Japanese Black Pines are generally considered less suitable for propagation by cuttings. Far less efficient than germination. The effectiveness of the cutting survival rate can be improved by species specific techniques taking advantage of the growth cycle of that species. Such as harvesting the cuttings in the fall ( after the winter buds have set ), refrigerating until spring then re-cutting and planting. This is generally used only when the specific characteristics of a particular tree is desired. For example needle size, color, density of branching. It is advised that when using this approach, plan on a lower survival rate and do extra cuttings. This concept can be referenced in the text " The Secret Techniques of Bonsai" written by Masakuni Kawasumi II and completed by his son Masakuni III, published in 2005.
I have successfully used this technique for JBP and Ezo Spruce , after working with regular cutting techniques in our climate with limited success. Their was an improvement in the survival rate but not enough for me to switch methods. I only use it when i want to clone a particular tree.
 

TN_Jim

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I have had fungi problems using both sand and seed starting mix (seeds on damp surface).
Solution, get that stuff
wet, microwave the hell out of it, cool, repeat. Sterilize tools and surfaces..have had better germination on soil than sand.
 

GGB

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triple cutting?! game changer.

on the orginal topic, I follow @Riversedgebonsai mix almost exactly, by pure chance. I have been germinating tree seeds far longer than I've been doing bonsai and I have had great success using that basic formula. I've found that potting soil and those peat puck stater plugs are just way to damp for a pine seedlings.
 

milehigh_7

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Or use a rootmaker pot which does this for you... https://rootmaker.com/rootmaker-system

Here is what a Texas Ebony seed that normally sends out a single long taproot looks like germinated and grown for a couple of months in a rootmaker. Notice it's developing radial roots and not a tap...20170209_163146.jpg
 

Bonsai Nut

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I've got four Texas ebony seedlings that have been growing all summer in a small pond basket. I'm about to move them into separate pots. It will be interesting to see what their roots look like...
 

Anthony

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Like I said check out Ausbonsai.
See how it works.

We use hardwood, might only get 1 in 5, but if we use say
10 pots we get out of the 5 cuttings per pot, 1 and with
10 pots. Well 10 plants.

We will over load on trees in say 10 years.
And can increase cuttings to 50 pots .................

Yes, we use only the vigorous trees.

But if say we saw something special and decided to propagate,
we could. Seed remains variable.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Gary McCarthy

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