The Chinese Elm Is In. What Next? Photos Included.

Maiden69

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Don't really understand what you're after--you mention "formal upright" and "broom." Formal upright is typically used for conifers, as it is a conifer form.
Well, you know that a lot of folks still shape their deciduous trees as if they were big pine trees.
 

Isilwen

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Learning those two is not an exclusive thing. Shutting down experience with "curved styles" walls off most of the techniques (both artistic and horticultural) used in formal upright and broom styles.

I understand that, butbtheybare aesthetically pleasing to me and I have no interest in them. When I speak of curved styles I am talking about the typical s curves that you see.

For me, they are actually pretty ugly looking. Again, that's for me. I know others find them pleasing, my girlfriend being one of them, but I simply don't.

Are you saying that because I won't work with those there will be a problem?
 

penumbra

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I'm just not a fan of the curved styles, cascades or the like. The only two styles I like are broom and formal/informal uprights.

I just got to learn how to do these styles.
Best of luck to you but very few people can do a convincing job of a bonsai in these styles. I know that despite many years of working in bonsai, a broom style that is convincing requires more patience than I have.
It is hard for me to understand what you are after exactly since bonsai is more or less a representation of what we see and are moved by in nature.
It seems that you are after parkland trees.

Additionally, you are coming here with zero experience, asking how to create a a tree style which is actually beyond the scope of what most people here either can do or are willing to do.
Those are very rigid parameters in every way my friend.
 
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Isilwen

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Best of luck to you but very few people can do a convincing job of a bonsai in these styles. I know that despite many years of working in bonsai, a broom style that is convincing requires more patience than I have.
It is hard for me to understand what you are after exactly since bonsai is more or less a representation of what we see and are moved by in nature.
It seems that you are after parkland trees.

So shouldn't I work with things that I find aesthetically pleasing and not with things that I don't? Seems counterintuitive to work something that I simply do not care to work with.

I don't see s curved trees in nature. So they simply do not move me. What moves me are classic looking maples, elms, pine and other deciduous trees. Broom and formal upright look classic to me.

I am after a tree or trees that are aesthetically pleasing to me.
 

penumbra

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So shouldn't I work with things that I find aesthetically pleasing and not with things that I don't? Seems counterintuitive to work something that I simply do not care to work with.

I don't see s curved trees in nature. So they simply do not move me. What moves me are classic looking maples, elms, pine and other deciduous trees. Broom and formal upright look classic to me.

I am after a tree or trees that are aesthetically pleasing to me.
You should do what you like.
Over and out.
 

rockm

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I understand that, butbtheybare aesthetically pleasing to me and I have no interest in them. When I speak of curved styles I am talking about the typical s curves that you see.

For me, they are actually pretty ugly looking. Again, that's for me. I know others find them pleasing, my girlfriend being one of them, but I simply don't.

Are you saying that because I won't work with those there will be a problem?
Forgive me, but I don't really think you DO understand. I don't want to be condescending (and if I do, sorry), but you are confused over what bonsai styles are, as well as how they are executed with trees to create credible bonsai.

The "S" curve stuff is aimed at beginners. No bonsaist really wants to be expert in creating those. They are not a "style" as much as they are unnatural looking junk. It's mass market, mass produced. No real talent involved. It's good you don't find them attractive, but you keep lumping every other style --except formal upright and broom) as being "curved" or "s" style--or so it appears to me.

"Traditional" bonsai styles are more natural looking and generally follow the manner in which trees actually grow. Also, styles have many variations and experts know how to tweak them to make more dramatic trees using those styles as starting points. Ultimately there are no 'rules' or mandatory styles, only the designer's ability to use those 'rules" and basic forms to create. But first, the designer has to understand how to make the basics...
 

Isilwen

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Forgive me, but I don't really think you DO understand. I don't want to be condescending (and if I do, sorry), but you are confused over what bonsai styles are, as well as how they are executed with trees to create credible bonsai.

The "S" curve stuff is aimed at beginners. No bonsaist really wants to be expert in creating those. They are not a "style" as much as they are unnatural looking junk. It's mass market, mass produced. No real talent involved. It's good you don't find them attractive, but you keep lumping every other style --except formal upright and broom) as being "curved" or "s" style--or so it appears to me.

"Traditional" bonsai styles are more natural looking and generally follow the manner in which trees actually grow. Also, styles have many variations and experts know how to tweak them to make more dramatic trees using those styles as starting points. Ultimately there are no 'rules' or mandatory styles, only the designer's ability to use those 'rules" and basic forms to create. But first, the designer has to understand how to make the basics...

I don't find you condescending at all.

I am still pretty new to this. I am still learning. When some says curved, to me that's the s shape that you and understand to be the mass market mass produced stuff. That is why I was dead set against it.

You have seen my photos and I think it was you, forgive me if it wasn't, who said that broom is all I can do with this tree. I might have misunderstood you.

What is it that I can do with this tree?

Keep in mind my nearest bonsai nursery is over two hours away and the likelihood of me going to classes there are slim as they hold them on Saturdays and I work Saturdays.
 

rockm

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I don't find you condescending at all.

I am still pretty new to this. I am still learning. When some says curved, to me that's the s shape that you and understand to be the mass market mass produced stuff. That is why I was dead set against it.

You have seen my photos and I think it was you, forgive me if it wasn't, who said that broom is all I can do with this tree. I might have misunderstood you.

What is it that I can do with this tree?

Keep in mind my nearest bonsai nursery is over two hours away and the likelihood of me going to classes there are slim as they hold them on Saturdays and I work Saturdays.
Without investing another decade or so growing out extensions to make it workable for other types of trees, a broom is probably all you're going to get out of that particular tree immediately. That short, relatively wide trunk isn't really workable as is for most any other form of tree that can be achieved in a month or even a couple of years.

FWIW, you could grow it out in a larger container or in the ground and cut back successive growth to extensions over the next five years or so--10 years of development would get a better foundation... This "trunk chop" method is the way many many bonsai are grown. A rule of thumb--Small bonsai do not become big bonsai. Placing a tree in a container restricts its growth. A container is the last stage of development for a tree...Another rule of thumb--Larger bonsai are cut down from larger (and mostly more impressive) trees. A third rule, the smaller the tree, the more styling expertise and horticultural knowledge are required=less tree, less room for mistakes and miscalculations from watering to pruning to design...

 
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