Rafael Najmanovich
Mame
Second styling of a nursery stock eastern white cedar (Thuja occidentalis). First styling spring 2018, repotted spring 2019, second styling late summer 2019.
The Conflict: Twin trunk Thuja second styling
- Thread starter Rafael Najmanovich
- Start date
Atom#28
Chumono
Thank you for the video, I really love the movement of these trunks. Please excuse me for offering my read, especially because I am very new to bonsai.....but, respectfully, I gotta say: something about the daughter trunk doesn't feel "right". The drooping looping top looks cool, but it seems unnatural to my eye. I think my brain is asking: "Would a real tree in nature flip a 180 degree turn and start reaching straight for the ground?" I also wonder if the daughter tree is just too tall. It seems to have very little taper, if any, for most of the length of the trunk.
I'm gonna be brave and respectfully offer my suggestion. I may be WAY OFF, and I am definitely here to learn from all of you, but here's what I am thinking.
What would happen if you chopped the daughter down by about 2/3 of the current height? Maybe a nice jin on top? Sort of like this (Ignore the red line on my virt):
BEFORE:
AFTER:
All that negative space feels so much more dramatic, and natural. There's still conflict between mother and daughter. And it may even be more balanced
I'm gonna be brave and respectfully offer my suggestion. I may be WAY OFF, and I am definitely here to learn from all of you, but here's what I am thinking.
What would happen if you chopped the daughter down by about 2/3 of the current height? Maybe a nice jin on top? Sort of like this (Ignore the red line on my virt):
BEFORE:
AFTER:
All that negative space feels so much more dramatic, and natural. There's still conflict between mother and daughter. And it may even be more balanced
Atom#28
Chumono
After the bold trunk chop, I would then start training the apex of the mother a bit like this. I basically just flipped the leftward-growing branch at the apex over to the right side to let the mother ease into that negative space a bit. BONUS: now there's a more triangular orientation of foliage (another virt attempt
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
I like the material Raphael, it has lots of potential with a few styling options to ponder. i wouldnt call it mother n daughter or father n son though, simply because both trunks are of similar height and thickness. to my eye its just a twin trunk. would probably look great on a slab one day. also, i dont think reducing one of the trunks by half like the image above will make a better image, imo the interest, movement, flow, character will be decreased.
at first i wasnt sure about the second trunk dipping down at the apex, buts its starting to grow on me. of course, as the tree fills out, one wont notice the curvature as much
at first i wasnt sure about the second trunk dipping down at the apex, buts its starting to grow on me. of course, as the tree fills out, one wont notice the curvature as much
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kouyou
Sapling
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attached is one of my favorite maples on the planet, located at kouka-en. the use of the term 'natural' in bonsai can be misleading
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BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
attached is one of my favorite maples on the planet, located at kouka-en. the use of the term 'natural' in bonsai can be misleading
just depends if it works or not. sometimes such bends are done poorly and just come across looking contrived or forced. it can be done in a way that appears natural even though it might not be in the trees normal growth habit to have dipping branches. the maple is well and done and i think the thuja works too. horse chesnuts in the UK tend to grow with dipping branches but look nothing like the pine like tridents.
this horsechesnut is growing outside my front window, the subrunks rise up but the primarys and everything else dips or arcs down...the tree has a spooky look when naked
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Atom#28
Chumono
attached is one of my favorite maples on the planet, located at kouka-en. the use of the term 'natural' in bonsai can be misleading
My god, that tree is magnificent! I see the downward growing branches, but on the maple I do not see the same kind of extreme, wide, swooping loop-de-doo that OP's design includes.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
yeh but conifers in nature can easily grow in these contorted shapes. so its not far fetched
LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
Nice material considering the species. Why not bring the fine base forwards in the pot? And a tilt to the viewers right by as much as twenty degrees would do wonders. Everything becomes more in focus as opposed to the leaning away feel this planting has. And you could eliminate the questionable bend on the smaller tree. Then you can reduce the lesser tree by introducing a new leader.
Foliage tendencies here might be a problem, always seem too "floppy" and detail wiring, (at least mine
) doesn't seem to help as much as I would like.
Foliage tendencies here might be a problem, always seem too "floppy" and detail wiring, (at least mine
) doesn't seem to help as much as I would like.LanceMac10
Imperial Masterpiece
….and it's "two trunk"....not "twin"....
Leo in N E Illinois
The Professor
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Parent - child tree arrangements tend to relate to each other in multiples of one third.
Child should be either 2/3 the height of the parent or 1/3 the height of the parent. Same height, and or exactly half the height tend to work less well. I would reduce the "child" and eliminate the loop. Just my 2 cents.
Child should be either 2/3 the height of the parent or 1/3 the height of the parent. Same height, and or exactly half the height tend to work less well. I would reduce the "child" and eliminate the loop. Just my 2 cents.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
I learned how to control that from John Wall at the show this year.
Cut the fronds.
Rafael,
There is a fundamental issue that throws your design off balance, and that is the planting angle. You keep calling it a “mother-daughter” (or father-son) composition, yet the smaller tree is growing on higher ground. The tree on the left needs to be on higher ground than the smaller tree. Shifting the angle so that it is on top of the mound would also bring its apex more on top of the lesser tree.
It should look as if the lesser tree is trying to move out, away from the taller tree. That swooping branch that comes from the top, back, and then comes in between the two to the front is just plain and simply convoluted.
I think an angle change, and some guy wires pulling the two trunks in closer together is a better styling choice. Other than the artificial “swoop”, the movement of the two trunks mirror each other, which is nice. They “complement” each other not “conflict” with each other, except for that “swoop” branch. Direct the movement of the second tree out to the right, out and towards the light, and you’ll have a pleasing composition.
There is a fundamental issue that throws your design off balance, and that is the planting angle. You keep calling it a “mother-daughter” (or father-son) composition, yet the smaller tree is growing on higher ground. The tree on the left needs to be on higher ground than the smaller tree. Shifting the angle so that it is on top of the mound would also bring its apex more on top of the lesser tree.
It should look as if the lesser tree is trying to move out, away from the taller tree. That swooping branch that comes from the top, back, and then comes in between the two to the front is just plain and simply convoluted.
I think an angle change, and some guy wires pulling the two trunks in closer together is a better styling choice. Other than the artificial “swoop”, the movement of the two trunks mirror each other, which is nice. They “complement” each other not “conflict” with each other, except for that “swoop” branch. Direct the movement of the second tree out to the right, out and towards the light, and you’ll have a pleasing composition.
Rafael Najmanovich
Mame
I think your suggestion of decreasing the height of the daughter trees is excellent. Except that to do that, and I am sure you are aware of that, I will need to approach graft the the foliage first or wait until and if some growth spring up at the right place as in conifers any branch without a growing tip will eventually loose any foliage it may still have (in the case of pines) and then completely die. This being a Thuja, any remaining growing tip is fine to keep the branch alive but a branch or trunk without anything growing in it is deadwood.
M. Frary
Bonsai Godzilla
Cut it off at the ground.
Rafael Najmanovich
Mame
I might just do that in the future but unlike how you perhaps cynically suggest, I may cut it perpendicular to the planting plane between the two trunks and separate the conflicting parent and child. I feel each could be a good tree in its own right.
Dav4
Drop Branch Murphy
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I could be wrong, but I don’t think Rafael agrees with you.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Got quote jumped.
@Rafael Najmanovich you issued some stuff.
Quote jumping is the phenomenon where the OP jumps down to a quote that they got summoned to and don't go back up to check for other content.
Sorce
He probably has me on ignore.
MACH5
Imperial Masterpiece
Mike, they can be tricky to manage and all depends on your preference. I like the fronds to be nice a neat. So like John I cut them back but... I do take advantage of their drooping nature and style my pads going downwards instead of upwards. Others let the foliage grow more "naturally". But I think when you have the fronds more tightly managed it imparts the tree with a really nice sense of scale. I love them! One of the very best native species for bonsai in my opinion and they love the cold!
The tree posted by Rafael is a nice piece of material!
Apologies for the momentary highjack!
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