The Controversial Topic of Deciduous "Pine Styled" Bonsai Trees

[A. Gorilla]

via Imgflip Meme Generator

Tee hee

 

[just.wing.it]

Fun topic. I look at it this way. If you can take a green mound juniper and style it to look like a pine tree - which I have never heard anyone mention or complain about in all the threads where folks pontificate about how awful it is to style deciduous trees to look like pines - then what's wrong with styling a tree in such a way that it looks artistically rendered? If it's wrong, then we must stop styling green mounds in any upright style because they're recumbent plants. In fact, most junipers may not be styled in a pine tree style, since it's not naturalistic.

If the bonsai evokes the impression of a large, old tree in nature but in miniature form, I'd say anything goes - because, frankly, it has.

Well said!
And yes, I've considered that before too, Junipers get away with any style, no Nebari, and they're acceptable... interesting.

 

[Adair M]

Well said!
And yes, I've considered that before too, Junipers get away with any style, no Nebari, and they're acceptable... interesting.

Junipers in the mountains often grow in the cracks between large rocks. After collection, there no traditional nebari. Or, there’s places where the deadwood has rotted away right at the soil line where it came into contact with the mountain duff. And the moisture in the duff rotted away the low deadwood.

Just as minor inclusions are proof that a diamond is not lab made, poor nebari is evidence that it is a naturally collected tree.

There are many opinions about styling. Should we be trying to replicate the look of wild trees? Should we make idealized trees that appear to be flawless?

We often take material of one species and style it in a form that it would not grow into on its own. Azalea, for example. Has anyone seen an untrained azalea be anything other than a bush or shrub? I haven’t. Quince. Ever seen one that’s not a bush? Me either.

The whole basis of the art was the monks climbing into the mountains, and coming across these naturally dwarfed, stunted, twisted, unusual trees! They liked them because they were DIFFERENT than the trees they saw every day.

Around here, we have pine trees, loblolly, by the millions. They make great telephone poles! Straight trunks, no low branches, no taper, all the foliage is way up at the top. If I were to style a bonsai to look like that, everyone would say that it’s boring, uninteresting. Yet, if I take that same material, and and put in some movement in the trunk, thin out the lollipop top, and cascade (drop branch) a couple of them, and suddenly I have a “literati”!

Bonsai is a dynamic art. A joint venture of the natural world and the husbandry provided by man. It doesn’t matter what it called as long as it’s done well. Good bonsai is good bonsai.

 

[BunjaeKorea]

Junipers in the mountains often grow in the cracks between large rocks. After collection, there no traditional nebari. Or, there’s places where the deadwood has rotted away right at the soil line where it came into contact with the mountain duff. And the moisture in the duff rotted away the low deadwood.

Just as minor inclusions are proof that a diamond is not lab made, poor nebari is evidence that it is a naturally collected tree.

There are many opinions about styling. Should we be trying to replicate the look of wild trees? Should we make idealized trees that appear to be flawless?

We often take material of one species and style it in a form that it would not grow into on its own. Azalea, for example. Has anyone seen an untrained azalea be anything other than a bush or shrub? I haven’t. Quince. Ever seen one that’s not a bush? Me either.

The whole basis of the art was the monks climbing into the mountains, and coming across these naturally dwarfed, stunted, twisted, unusual trees! They liked them because they were DIFFERENT than the trees they saw every day.

Around here, we have pine trees, loblolly, by the millions. They make great telephone poles! Straight trunks, no low branches, no taper, all the foliage is way up at the top. If I were to style a bonsai to look like that, everyone would say that it’s boring, uninteresting. Yet, if I take that same material, and and put in some movement in the trunk, thin out the lollipop top, and cascade (drop branch) a couple of them, and suddenly I have a “literati”!

Bonsai is a dynamic art. A joint venture of the natural world and the husbandry provided by man. It doesn’t matter what it called as long as it’s done well. Good bonsai is good bonsai.

I agree. Every wild Azalea looks like some weird blonde that thinks she can dance but is actually just having a histerical fit on the dance floor.......funny how trees remind one of peoplw.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I will look him up, I think that name rings a bell, but I need to look!
Thanks!


I got into bonsai after just happening upon Google images of those super perfect amazing looking azalea bonsai, while doing azalea research for my landscape plants.
Interesting to look back at my original views and interests...
I still love azalea bonsai, but they have been a thorn in my side, I've killed more than not...

Will aka @grouper52 worked with Dan and created quite an inspirational book of his work. The photos and history is a very good read.
http://www.elandangardens.com/gnarlybranches

 

[wireme]

How does this one go....?

"The island that can't be found except for by those who already know where it is..."

I often think of it in regards to my personal journey...

But each tree, anyone's tree, they all are like that island.

We are all "the only ones who know how to get there".

Of course you can receive good advice here.
And it helps.

Bad advice helps too, like a broken compass, you have to "feel" your way there anyway!

It's like hearing 6 different options, all good, but finding the proper design in the "negative space" of the thread.
@wireme and the tree he let me build a pot for....(drying!...dope!...the hehehehe!) Come to mind. He and a couple others do it well...

Gather all the information and ideas....

Then resort back to the broken compass and feel your way to the design with help from the tree.

Everything is nothing.
Nothing is perfect.

Sorce

You mean you’re gonna let me put a tree in your pot. Heheehehe

 

[JudyB]

This topic seems to be less and less important as time goes on, seems like most have now accepted that a good tree is indeed a good tree. I suppose there are still those who get their panties in a twist about it, and always will be. Do as the material tells you the direction will best suit the tree. And your vision for it.

 

[just.wing.it]

This topic seems to be less and less important as time goes on, seems like most have now accepted that a good tree is indeed a good tree. I suppose there are still those who get their panties in a twist about it, and always will be. Do as the material tells you the direction will best suit the tree. And your vision for it.

I hope you're right!
And I agree!

 

[just.wing.it]

Junipers in the mountains often grow in the cracks between large rocks. After collection, there no traditional nebari. Or, there’s places where the deadwood has rotted away right at the soil line where it came into contact with the mountain duff. And the moisture in the duff rotted away the low deadwood.

Just as minor inclusions are proof that a diamond is not lab made, poor nebari is evidence that it is a naturally collected tree.

There are many opinions about styling. Should we be trying to replicate the look of wild trees? Should we make idealized trees that appear to be flawless?

We often take material of one species and style it in a form that it would not grow into on its own. Azalea, for example. Has anyone seen an untrained azalea be anything other than a bush or shrub? I haven’t. Quince. Ever seen one that’s not a bush? Me either.

The whole basis of the art was the monks climbing into the mountains, and coming across these naturally dwarfed, stunted, twisted, unusual trees! They liked them because they were DIFFERENT than the trees they saw every day.

Around here, we have pine trees, loblolly, by the millions. They make great telephone poles! Straight trunks, no low branches, no taper, all the foliage is way up at the top. If I were to style a bonsai to look like that, everyone would say that it’s boring, uninteresting. Yet, if I take that same material, and and put in some movement in the trunk, thin out the lollipop top, and cascade (drop branch) a couple of them, and suddenly I have a “literati”!

Bonsai is a dynamic art. A joint venture of the natural world and the husbandry provided by man. It doesn’t matter what it called as long as it’s done well. Good bonsai is good bonsai.

Thanks for that @Adair M , well put.

 

[my nellie]

The Bonsai professional most admired by me is Mr. Shinji Suzuki not only for his trees but mainly for his personality and qualities of his character (as far as I can say from videos and interviews I can reach online, that is) and Mr. Peter Warren for exactly the same reasons.

There is a video on the net named : A Year in the Life of Shinji Suzuki - Taikan which I am not sure a lot of bonsai people are aware of.

It is the documentary (kind of) of Shinji Suzuki's trip to the Yakushima island in order to see in person the oldest tree in Japan, which is a 7000 years old Cedar, the Jomon Cedar.

The duration is hardly an hour (almost 50 min.) and it's worth watching.
But for those who have no spare time, let me post here some quotes which are indicative of the Artist's spirit and his view on bonsai, after he has spent so many years in this art and after the meeting with Jomon Cedar.

A good bonsai displays the tree's true potential.​

Everyday I wonder how far I'd go in shaping the trees and how much to leave alone. ​

I wanted to think about the meaning of bonsai here (in Yakushima)​

Now I've come to think that shapes are not so important.​

There definitely is a limit to what humans can do to nature.​

I want to keep respecting that through bonsai.​

The visit to Yakushima made me think about style and life.​

Expressing the value of nature seems more meaningful.​

​

Upon his return from Yakushima Mr. Suzuki has made up his mind as to what is going to be his contestant tree in the 26th Sakufu-Ten Annual Competition in 2000.
He wants to express his experience in Yakushima, so a Goyo Matsu Pine tree which he had been working on for 10 years will be his submission to the contest.

Mr. Morimae came to visit him and help him to come to a decision.
Shinji Suzuki is told by Mr. Morimae that trees like the tree of his choice can be controversial and of course Mr. Morimae knows just too well what one needs to win.
"If you want to win pick this other one" he said to Suzuki, "but if you insist, if you don't mind not winning any prize, I have nothing to say. This is a good tree but it will not be favored by the judges".

Suzuki's Pine was among the three trees for final judgement.

• K. Kobayashi's Kuro Matsu Pine won Grand Prize
• A Magnificent Ezo-Matsu Pine by a first time contestant Mr. Taguchi won the Shohaku category prize.

Suzuki's Pine ends up with no prize.

All my previous work had an artificial touch, so people were surprised to see my new style. There's no end in bonsai, I'll keep trying for better" said Mr. Suzuki.

 

[just.wing.it]

The Bonsai professional most admired by me is Mr. Shinji Suzuki not only for his trees but mainly for his personality and qualities of his character (as far as I can say from videos and interviews I can reach online, that is) and Mr. Peter Warren for exactly the same reasons.

There is a video on the net named : A Year in the Life of Shinji Suzuki - Taikan which I am not sure a lot of bonsai people are aware of.

It is the documentary (kind of) of Shinji Suzuki's trip to the Yakushima island in order to see in person the oldest tree in Japan, which is a 7000 years old Cedar, the Jomon Cedar.

The duration is hardly an hour (almost 50 min.) and it's worth watching.
But for those who have no spare time, let me post here some quotes which are indicative of the Artist's spirit and his view on bonsai, after he has spent so many years in this art and after the meeting with Jomon Cedar.

A good bonsai displays the tree's true potential.​

Everyday I wonder how far I'd go in shaping the trees and how much to leave alone. I wanted to think about the meaning of bonsai here​

Now I've come to think that shapes are not so important.​

There definitely is a limit to what humans can do to nature.​

I want to keep respecting that through bonsai.​

The visit to Yakushima made me think about style and life.​

Expressing the value of nature seems more meaningful.​

​

Upon his return from Yakushima Mr. Suzuki has made up his mind as to what is going to be his contestant tree in the 26th Sakufu-Ten Annual Competition in 2000.
He wants to express his experience in Yakushima, so a Goyo Matsu Pine tree which he had been working on for 10 years will be his submission to the contest.

Mr. Morimae came to visit him and help him to come to a decision.
Shinji Suzuki is told by Mr. Morimae that trees like the tree of his choice can be controversial and of course Mr. Morimae knows just too well what one needs to win.
"If you want to win pick this other one" he said to Suzuki, "but if you insist, if you don't mind not winning any prize, I have nothing to say. This is a good tree but it will not be favored by the judges".

Suzuki's Pine was among the three trees for final judgement.

• K. Kobayashi's Kuro Matsu Pine won Grand Prize
• A Magnificent Ezo-Matsu Pine by a first time contestant Mr. Taguchi won the Shohaku category prize
• Suzuki's Pine ends up with no prize.

All my previous work had an artificial touch, so people were surprised to see my new style. There's no end in bonsai, I'll keep trying for better" said Mr. Suzuki.

Oh, cool, thanks, I'll be sure to check that out after work...

 

[my nellie]

Glad you find it interesting.
I am sure you will enjoy every minute of this!

 

[Phlkrg]

I want get to the bottom of this...

An Informal Upright Trident...
A Formal Upright JM...

Is it really that offensive to see???

Can they not still be beautiful works of living art???

I'm all for Naturalistic Style, using the species's mature look as a blueprint for your bonsai...and I am striving for that in many of my trees.

Has the culture of bonsai changed in front of our eyes???

It seems more and more, like people are quick to dismiss the notion of a "pine style" for a deciduous tree...

What's the big freaking deal!?!?!

Maybe making a tree grow in a way in which it normally would not is part of the art...for some.

Where are the Maple Styled conifers???
Is that a thing people do???

It’s your tree. It’s your vision. Enjoy your tree the way you like it.

 

[Adair M]

Glad you find it interesting.
I am sure you will enjoy every minute of this!

We watch that video at Boon’s during the Intensives.

It may interest everyone to know that there are currently two former apprentices of Mr Suzuki now living and practicing bonsai in the United States.

Matt Reel lives in the Portland, OR area. He studied with Suzuki for 7 years.

Tyler Sherard lives in the Hickory, NC area, and studied with Suzuki for 5 years. He styled a tree owned by one of Mr. Suzuki’s clents, and won a Kokofu prize! (I think as a reward for that, Mr Suzuki took him out for dinner, and let him sleep in an extra hour the next morning!)

If you get a chance to work with either of these guys, jump on the opportunity!

 

[my nellie]

... ...It may interest everyone to know that there are currently two former apprentices of Mr Suzuki now living and practicing bonsai in the United States.
If you get a chance to work with either of these guys, jump on the opportunity!

Lucky you US-onians! (name according to AlaiK)

 

[sparklemotion]

Matt Reel lives in the Portland, OR area. He studied with Suzuki for 7 years.

If you get a chance to work with either of these guys, jump on the opportunity!

I recently signed up for a pair of workshops with Matt Reel this year (May and September). I'm glad to know that I'll be spending my money/time wisely.