The Controversial Topic of Deciduous "Pine Styled" Bonsai Trees

[sparklemotion]

Yup, so I guess art doesn't have rules?


Oh Shit!! Did I really just say that?!?

Always abide by the code.

 

[just.wing.it]

Yup, so I guess art doesn't have rules?


Oh Shit!! Did I really just say that?!?

It kinda doesn't...
I've seen some things..... questionable artistic things...

 

[just.wing.it]

I'm fairly sure this is related to a comment Smoke made in my thread about my new Trident stock but there is no controversy about it, it's a fairly straight up and down pre-bonsai which needs a future of some description and I'm all ears.
I think @just.wing.it means more about the comment in general, I'm interested too as I can't speak one way or the other really.

Yeah, yeah, in general...
Smoke's comment only sparked my thread...

 

[just.wing.it]

I've not been around much these past few years, and am probably a perrenial fan of controversy in the field, and no fan of Boon and such, but I've missed out on this one. Can someone spell out out the broad outlines of the controversy, and - yes - post some pix to illustrate? Thanks.

So I've just noticed that more and more I hear love for Naturalistic Style and basic discust for Non-conifers styled as Pines...

 

[just.wing.it]

I don't have any good pics on hand at the moment...
But what I'm basically saying is a single trunk with horizontal to downward main branches, forming a triangle...
Deciduous trees don't grow like that...but you can make them do it...

 

[just.wing.it]

I understand it's all subjective and personal preference, as is all art...
But it seems like something recent has made more people reject the idea of Deciduous trees in Formal Upright, or Informal...
I want to know why...

Is it simply Walter's videos online???
I suppose it could be...he certainly has reached a larger audience than anyone before YouTube...

 

[rockm]

Strictly accepting "Naturalistic" or "Traditional" as THE way to do bonsai is simply a slavish dedication to what other people say. "Naturalistic" style has become as rigidly "acceptable" as its supporters say "traditional" artists are.

It's all subjective. Along with naturalistic and traditional, bonsai styles can be clannish and faddish (and snobbish) on both sides. There is no single "way" that is "better" than the other.

Make what you want. Do it well and in harmony with what a rough piece of stock suggests to you. The product of that combination is usually bulletproof style wise.

 

[BobbyLane]

I understand it's all subjective and personal preference, as is all art...
But it seems like something recent has made more people reject the idea of Deciduous trees in Formal Upright, or Informal...
I want to know why...

Is it simply Walter's videos online???
I suppose it could be...he certainly has reached a larger audience than anyone before YouTube...

In regards to deciduous trees it isnt just art though imo. styling them the way they would grow naturally is also better for the tree horticulturally. most are apically dominant so having everything grow up and out is far better for letting light into the tree and lower branches and you will develop a balanced branch structure far quicker by having the tips rise up as opposed to down. you can try it yourself. its not just about aesthetic or being a slave to the natural growth pattern. its better for the tree.

 

[Anthony]

It only matters when you display and to set of display guidelines.
Backyard, as you wish.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Tentakelaertje]

Apart from the liking issues, what makes a decidious style tree? What makes a conifer style tree?
I think a single trunkline is something typical of a conifer style tree. Dedidious trees usually have ramification in their trunks with the new trunklines be about equal in caliper.
Downwards growing/curving branches occur in both types, so that's imho not a dealbreaker.
Curious to what you guys think defines/belongs to either style.

 

[BobbyLane]

Apart from the liking issues, what makes a decidious style tree? What makes a conifer style tree?
I think a single trunkline is something typical of a conifer style tree. Dedidious trees usually have ramification in their trunks with the new trunklines be about equal in caliper.
Downwards growing/curving branches occur in both types, so that's imho not a dealbreaker.
Curious to what you guys think defines/belongs to either style.

in regards to deciduous branching you can get branches that dip from the weight of leaves, but look closely and more often than not, the tips, tertieries are rising up searching for light.

 

[Wilson]

Seems like in bonsai there are all kinds of "rules" that don't follow natural growth patterns. It is just about pleasing design, so if you like triangular trees so be it. When we are told that lower branches should be thicker than upper branches, that is more aesthetics.

 

[just.wing.it]

Strictly accepting "Naturalistic" or "Traditional" as THE way to do bonsai is simply a slavish dedication to what other people say. "Naturalistic" style has become as rigidly "acceptable" as its supporters say "traditional" artists are.

It's all subjective. Along with naturalistic and traditional, bonsai styles can be clannish and faddish (and snobbish) on both sides. There is no single "way" that is "better" than the other.

Make what you want. Do it well and in harmony with what a rough piece of stock suggests to you. The product of that combination is usually bulletproof style wise.

Amen brutha!

In regards to deciduous trees it isnt just art though imo. styling them the way they would grow naturally is also better for the tree horticulturally. most are apically dominant so having everything grow up and out is far better for letting light into the tree and lower branches and you will develop a balanced branch structure far quicker by having the tips rise up as opposed to down. you can try it yourself. its not just about aesthetic or being a slave to the natural growth pattern. its better for the tree.

in regards to deciduous branching you can get branches that dip from the weight of leaves, but look closely and more often than not, the tips, tertieries are rising up searching for light.

Apart from the liking issues, what makes a decidious style tree? What makes a conifer style tree?
I think a single trunkline is something typical of a conifer style tree. Dedidious trees usually have ramification in their trunks with the new trunklines be about equal in caliper.
Downwards growing/curving branches occur in both types, so that's imho not a dealbreaker.
Curious to what you guys think defines/belongs to either style.

Seems like in bonsai there are all kinds of "rules" that don't follow natural growth patterns. It is just about pleasing design, so if you like triangular trees so be it. When we are told that lower branches should be thicker than upper branches, that is more aesthetics.

It only matters when you display and to set of display guidelines.
Backyard, as you wish.
Good Day
Anthony

Thanks guys!
All very good and relevant points, absolutely!
Much appreciated input!

 

[Cadillactaste]

I took one of my big'n fat tridents that I'd been styling as an informal broom to a Boon workshop last week... wellllll.... it ain't being styled as an informal broom any more.

Photos or it didn't happen!

Truthfully...curiosity killed the cat ya know!!! Would love to see before and after. Do you plan on a thread?

 

[just.wing.it]

Curious to what you guys think defines/belongs to either style.

Personally, when I view bonsai art(and this may not be true of my own trees, at this point....but) I like trees that do not conform to a text book style...

Whether that's a Naturalistic or Pine Bonsai style is not what I'm looking for....

I like the super rugged ones that look like a Volkswagen crashed into it 60 years ago and the car was just recently removed, exposing the most grotesquely gnarly tree trunk you've ever seen...

I somewhat regretfully feel like I'm growing weary of the super perfect Bjorn style bonsai....I mean, individually, each of those perfectly manicured trees is totally amazing and incredible, but when I see videos of the gardens where damn near every tree looks the same,.... I'm like uuummmm, hhhmmmmm..... ...

Not to rag on Bjorn, I love him, I love his videos and he's doing tremendous things for the bonsai community as a whole, especially here in the states.
I can't wait to visit his nursery in TN when it's up and running.
I use him as an example to get my point across, because he IS so good at what he does....it's quite amazing really.

 

[Anthony]

Study 10 or 20 Mature [ young ] trees of the same type.
Sit down and do a drawing from memory.
See what you retain.
And that's your Bonsai effort.

Good Day
Anthony

J.B.pine design

 

[Wilson]

Personally, when I view bonsai art(and this may not be true of my own trees, at this point....but) I like trees that do not conform to a text book style...

Whether that's a Naturalistic or Pine Bonsai style is not what I'm looking for....

I like the super rugged ones that look like a Volkswagen crashed into it 60 years ago and the car was just recently removed, exposing the most grotesquely gnarly tree trunk you've ever seen...

I somewhat regretfully feel like I'm growing weary of the super perfect Bjorn style bonsai....I mean, individually, each of those perfectly manicured trees is totally amazing and incredible, but when I see videos of the gardens where damn near every tree looks the same,.... I'm like uuummmm, hhhmmmmm..... ...

Not to rag on Bjorn, I love him, I love his videos and he's doing tremendous things for the bonsai community as a whole, especially here in the states.
I can't wait to visit his nursery in TN when it's up and running.
I use him as an example to get my point across, because he IS so good at what he does....it's quite amazing really.

It was Dan robinsons trees that really got me interested to start doing bonsai. It is the gnarly battered trees you mentioned, that really grab my imagination.

 

[just.wing.it]

It was Dan robinsons trees that really got me interested to start doing bonsai. It is the gnarly battered trees you mentioned, that really grab my imagination.

I will look him up, I think that name rings a bell, but I need to look!
Thanks!


I got into bonsai after just happening upon Google images of those super perfect amazing looking azalea bonsai, while doing azalea research for my landscape plants.
Interesting to look back at my original views and interests...
I still love azalea bonsai, but they have been a thorn in my side, I've killed more than not...

 

[Anthony]

@just.wing.it ,

okay you decide -

[1] Wiki commons image - J.B.pine roots

[2] almost 30 years from seed - natural surface roots of j.b.pine

Well ?
Good Day
Anthony

Wiki commons - J.B.pine


What happens naturally

 

[Victorim]

Honestly, a picture would be useless, as the tree was fully and irrevocably "Boonified". Ask @Adair M for the definition.

No, thats exactly why I screamed pic Come on now.. just one