The Double Colander ------ is this it's use.
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My own personal experience has been the following.
Colanders are for air pruning roots, and establishing fine feeder roots.
They are not for growing a piece of material out. Roots have to be able to grow long.
If one wants to thicken trunk, heal over large scars, thicken main branching, or beef of nebari.
Using colanders defeats this purpose and will take a lot more time.
Now, as far as putting something in the ground... I do this all of the time with actually old bonsai pots, plastic nursery pots, etc.
Reason... roots that are allowed to escape pot take off! They can then at a later time be removed, and the material still has fine feeder roots in close inside the pot. Then all the big roots can be removed. I would not use however a colander for this... you will end up with a mess! With all kinds of roots going through and you will end up cutting it out of the roots ball, I big pain in the ass! With normal pot, you just cut the couple of roots coming out the bottom. Takes less than a minute.
Why would you do this? It is nicer than just throwing it in the ground by itself. No having to chase back fine roots that are 5 feet away from the base of the trunk.
Colanders are for air pruning roots, and establishing fine feeder roots.
They are not for growing a piece of material out. Roots have to be able to grow long.
If one wants to thicken trunk, heal over large scars, thicken main branching, or beef of nebari.
Using colanders defeats this purpose and will take a lot more time.
Now, as far as putting something in the ground... I do this all of the time with actually old bonsai pots, plastic nursery pots, etc.
Reason... roots that are allowed to escape pot take off! They can then at a later time be removed, and the material still has fine feeder roots in close inside the pot. Then all the big roots can be removed. I would not use however a colander for this... you will end up with a mess! With all kinds of roots going through and you will end up cutting it out of the roots ball, I big pain in the ass! With normal pot, you just cut the couple of roots coming out the bottom. Takes less than a minute.
Why would you do this? It is nicer than just throwing it in the ground by itself. No having to chase back fine roots that are 5 feet away from the base of the trunk.
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Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Actually, Stacy,
with a tree in a colander, for x months, and then placed in the ground, this what we observed, the trunk thickens.
When dug up, there is still a quantity of fine roots, enough to keep the tree on even keel.
You can then leave the tree in the colander and it restarts the feeder root bit.
A safety net.
Yes, Clyde, I too have posted that video here, maybe twice.
Note I also stated that the double colander may work on the idea that your tree is one of those capable of
thickening in a pot, listed are a few trees, and with more we will see how many more do so.
That the second colander, would evolve feeder roots and the first colander would develop thicker roots,
because the tree is capable of thickening in the pot.
It maybe that folk using the colander, may simply be doing a case of what we call - monkey see, monkey do.
As I believe I sated before --------- a tree in a colander, may simply be a healthy tree but not much more.
More to say as we repot, but the tamarinds have to done in May/April.
Additionally, we use the branch extension test, if a tree can thicken in a pot with a branch extension, 3' - 6' - 10'
it will do well in a colander situation.
Example - no length of [ 10' ] branch extension will pot thicken a Fukien tea. Responds only to ground growing.
Good Day
Anthony
with a tree in a colander, for x months, and then placed in the ground, this what we observed, the trunk thickens.
When dug up, there is still a quantity of fine roots, enough to keep the tree on even keel.
You can then leave the tree in the colander and it restarts the feeder root bit.
A safety net.
Yes, Clyde, I too have posted that video here, maybe twice.
Note I also stated that the double colander may work on the idea that your tree is one of those capable of
thickening in a pot, listed are a few trees, and with more we will see how many more do so.
That the second colander, would evolve feeder roots and the first colander would develop thicker roots,
because the tree is capable of thickening in the pot.
It maybe that folk using the colander, may simply be doing a case of what we call - monkey see, monkey do.
As I believe I sated before --------- a tree in a colander, may simply be a healthy tree but not much more.
More to say as we repot, but the tamarinds have to done in May/April.
Additionally, we use the branch extension test, if a tree can thicken in a pot with a branch extension, 3' - 6' - 10'
it will do well in a colander situation.
Example - no length of [ 10' ] branch extension will pot thicken a Fukien tea. Responds only to ground growing.
Good Day
Anthony
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Just a thought.
So you live on an island, and growing land is scarce, and someone tells you about roots and how they react to air.
Aha colanders. Note the article in Bonsai Today 20 is on fast ways to grow J.B.pine seed, using little soil and lots
of oil meal.
Aha add a second colander, don't disturb the plant, and even a third colander.
Lots of oil meal cakes.
The proof that the J.B.pine, is fast to thicken, is the earlier article, in Bonsai Today 12 , uses earthenware pots.
Self cooling, evaporative moisture loss. Not able to be overwatered and about 5/6" deep [ measured the cigarette
box with calipers - arithmetic ] Or are they stoneware ?
Note - a comparison check of the Bonsai Today articles show, the J.B.pine growing in colander or pot, has the same speed of
thickening over the years.
[ the trunk at 3" is of great interest to us, as we use 15" to 18" as a height / weight limit - old age - lifting ]
So what's the point ----------- plastic colander - accessible and cheapo.
On our side - earthenware accessible and cheapo as well.
Colanders by the way, now come as stainless steel mesh and sheets of stainless steel with holes punched through.
The one made from sheets of stainless steel, are not damaged by roots in the growing trough. The roots self
cut when they exceed the size of the metal hole.e
Now what about the fertiliser ---------------- only see oil meal seed mentioned ------ does the organic matter help
with the second colander ----------------- anyone ever test this ---------- and not theorise ?????
On-line the US agri-service has pine fertiliser listed as 10-8-6 [ forest trees ] micro nutrients = forest soil ?
So is the oil seed meal superior as a fertiliser, organic interaction, plant evolution or will Artificial fertilisers work?
Good Day
Anthony
So you live on an island, and growing land is scarce, and someone tells you about roots and how they react to air.
Aha colanders. Note the article in Bonsai Today 20 is on fast ways to grow J.B.pine seed, using little soil and lots
of oil meal.
Aha add a second colander, don't disturb the plant, and even a third colander.
Lots of oil meal cakes.
The proof that the J.B.pine, is fast to thicken, is the earlier article, in Bonsai Today 12 , uses earthenware pots.
Self cooling, evaporative moisture loss. Not able to be overwatered and about 5/6" deep [ measured the cigarette
box with calipers - arithmetic ] Or are they stoneware ?
Note - a comparison check of the Bonsai Today articles show, the J.B.pine growing in colander or pot, has the same speed of
thickening over the years.
[ the trunk at 3" is of great interest to us, as we use 15" to 18" as a height / weight limit - old age - lifting ]
So what's the point ----------- plastic colander - accessible and cheapo.
On our side - earthenware accessible and cheapo as well.
Colanders by the way, now come as stainless steel mesh and sheets of stainless steel with holes punched through.
The one made from sheets of stainless steel, are not damaged by roots in the growing trough. The roots self
cut when they exceed the size of the metal hole.e
Now what about the fertiliser ---------------- only see oil meal seed mentioned ------ does the organic matter help
with the second colander ----------------- anyone ever test this ---------- and not theorise ?????
On-line the US agri-service has pine fertiliser listed as 10-8-6 [ forest trees ] micro nutrients = forest soil ?
So is the oil seed meal superior as a fertiliser, organic interaction, plant evolution or will Artificial fertilisers work?
Good Day
Anthony
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
Thanks for thinking thing trough, and experimenting. I can't add to the discussion. IMHO artificial will work to.
GroveKeeper
Shohin
Vance you make a lot of good points. I was wondering... say you wanted to grow out trees for 2-3 years. Do you think it would be better to put them directly in the ground or put them in an air pruning pot for a year to build up lots of root tips, then put them in the ground?
Grove, the danger of "putting them in the ground" is that some roots might find a section of particularly good soil, and grow significantly larger than the others. This will create a one sided nebari. You see this often with tridents grown in the ground. Instead of even rootage all around the trunk, instead they send out two or three large "buttress" roots that require a significant chop to be able to fit in a bonsai pot later on. And, often the nebari needs to get "fixed" with root grafts or airlayering.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Adair is right. Ground will give you a quicker result with the kind of trees you are forced to use in Florida, but what happens to the roots is accurate. In the ground unless you have prepped the growing bed as carefully as you prep the soil that goes into your pots, there will, inevitably, be places in the growing bed that are more condusive for growth than others. Trees, like all other living things, will seek the path of least resistance and the upper growth of the tree will reflect this, as Adair has pointed out.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Curious question: Have seen much converse about using these on here but wonder if they do this in the orient? You might ask what does it matter? I'm curious as so many on here think the sun rises and sets over there whether THEY use this technique.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
People around here kind of got hooked on the method from an artical in Bonsai Today back in the early 80's. The article was published by a Japanese bonsai grower.
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How is this any different than what I said?
Steve C
Omono
Yeah the old saying that tropical fish size is related to tank size is a popular saying, but it is actually nothing more than an old wives tale. A fishes size is determined by it's species, genes, and it's food intake. I've had numerous fish out grow their tanks due to growth/size. The only time you can have fish size limited is in a natural pond where the numbers of fish in it limit the availability of food then some fish will be stunted as the genes get passed down, but that does not happen in the aquarium hobby.
Geo
Chumono
Definitely. I had a fingerling Koi in a 15 gallon tank that grew to 1 foot before I got it into a pond.
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"plants in Florida" and the playing of the location card.... are you trying to tell us trees in the ground do not grow faster than in pots where you live? I have a funny feeling this is not the case?
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The problem with not putting them in the ground seeing you are trying to grow the out, is that you will be sitting with your trees 10 years from now sitting in a colander, wondering why they still are pretty much the same size. But, they will have nice roots as previously mentioned. So, I suggest flipping a coin! Do you want nice roots or a trunk of any size? You don't get both, either way you have to sacrifice something...
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Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
The right combo will do the trick. Train in container / airpot / pondbasket /colander first until there is a reasonable rootsystem. Placing them for one (for small) or two years (for bigger) will exponentially increase the growth rate. Then you start over in a container for 2 years to correct the roots early on. You repeat the proces until you have the results you want. At the end of the cycle when the trunk is the good size, you might grow in a big box to build branches faster and to correct flaws in the rootbase faster. This is my understanding. Except for small trees, or trees you want to take time to make them flawless, you can shorten the time needed by ground growing. There is no right or wrong in my opinion, it is only a matter of priority. Grow faster with some flaws (roots or to big branches and pruning scars), or take your time. When ground growing trees you can circle the tree with a spade once or twice a year. This will stop the biggest roots to run forever.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Hmm and it here it comes, start the arguments, forget the discussion and no one leans anything.
Potawatonmi 13,
actually, the Bonsai Today articles I mentioned are excellent to test your growing technique against theirs.
So when the Author drifted into Akadama, we continued on with our mix, but kept the time reference he
used for the thickening of his J.B.pine trunks.
Additionally, in the J.B.pine article no.12 after all his illustrations on trunk thickening, he left the last
page for his - more graceful - attempts at growing the J.B.pine.
We stayed with the idea of the - more graceful - since our inspiration comes from trees in nature -- not convention.
Note we use a thick lowest branch, 3/4 of the trunk , convention uses a thinnner lowest branch.
We also added on the use of cuttings [ through AusBonsai ] and we don't buy trees, just grow them from seed or
cuttings. We also do air layers. You learn a great deal more.
Thus far the use of compost, allows us to bypass the oil seed practice and we can make use of 1/3 strength fertiliser
into moist soil.
This year we are testing compost tea on the oldest trees. We also have expendable older trees, since over the years
there have been many experiments.
Most of the information on Bonsai is written for zone 7 and Ling Nan [ clip and grow ] in it's Cantonese form
will produce, weird Chinese Ink Painting, calligraphic trees meant to be seen against a wall in a room.
We use more of the European Sculpture in the round.
_________________________________________________________________
Stacy --- MOST HUMBLE APOLOGIES !! trying to handle too much at one time.
_________________________________________________________________
Dirk - THANK YOU y!!!! saved me a lot of writing on the enlarged root bit.
Namaste Tutti
Good Day
Anthony
Potawatonmi 13,
actually, the Bonsai Today articles I mentioned are excellent to test your growing technique against theirs.
So when the Author drifted into Akadama, we continued on with our mix, but kept the time reference he
used for the thickening of his J.B.pine trunks.
Additionally, in the J.B.pine article no.12 after all his illustrations on trunk thickening, he left the last
page for his - more graceful - attempts at growing the J.B.pine.
We stayed with the idea of the - more graceful - since our inspiration comes from trees in nature -- not convention.
Note we use a thick lowest branch, 3/4 of the trunk , convention uses a thinnner lowest branch.
We also added on the use of cuttings [ through AusBonsai ] and we don't buy trees, just grow them from seed or
cuttings. We also do air layers. You learn a great deal more.
Thus far the use of compost, allows us to bypass the oil seed practice and we can make use of 1/3 strength fertiliser
into moist soil.
This year we are testing compost tea on the oldest trees. We also have expendable older trees, since over the years
there have been many experiments.
Most of the information on Bonsai is written for zone 7 and Ling Nan [ clip and grow ] in it's Cantonese form
will produce, weird Chinese Ink Painting, calligraphic trees meant to be seen against a wall in a room.
We use more of the European Sculpture in the round.
_________________________________________________________________
Stacy --- MOST HUMBLE APOLOGIES !! trying to handle too much at one time.
_________________________________________________________________
Dirk - THANK YOU y!!!! saved me a lot of writing on the enlarged root bit.
Namaste Tutti
Good Day
Anthony
