The first cut of a seedling

[BillyBonesBonsai]

When growing from seed when is the best time to make the first cut?

 

[Deleted member 21616]

2pm

 

[Silentrunning]

I think what Derek is saying is “ how about some more information?” Like type of tree for starters.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

As @derek7745's previous reply was ironically implying, it depends on several things.

1. Species
2. What size and style you want your tree to finish at.

Generally, you first figure out what diameter trunk you need to get the image you want. Typically for deciduous trees, trunk diameter is more than 10% of finished height, usually less than 100% of finished height , (sumo style is 1:1 :: diameter : height). Very common the trunk diameter is 20 to 25% of the tree's finished height. So for a 12 inch tall bonsai the trunk should likely be 2 to 3 inches in diameter at a minimum.

So you let the deciduous tree seedling grow until it's diameter is 2 to 3 inches. Then you make the very first cut. The tree might be 5 feet tall by the time it finally has a 2 inch diameter trunk. That's okay, we bring trees down to bonsai size, we normally don't grow them up to bonsai size. Back to your now 5 ft tall tree, cut the tree back to 4 inches, grow out the next segment of trunk. When diameter of second segment is half or more the diameter of the first, cut the second segment off at about 6 inches, from here you will be working on branches.

Growing from seed is a long slow process, taking many years. And most of the time the future bonsai will be much larger than it's finished size in order to create trunk diameter and taper to correct diameter branches.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

There are many variables, and different systems for creating a tree, the above is the basic pattern for deciduous trees from seed. Conifers have a different sequence.

 

[TN_Jim]

As @derek7745's previous reply was ironically implying, it depends on several things.

1. Species
2. What size and style you want your tree to finish at.

Generally, you first figure out what diameter trunk you need to get the image you want. Typically for deciduous trees, trunk diameter is more than 10% of finished height, usually less than 100% of finished height , (sumo style is 1:1 :: diameter : height). Very common the trunk diameter is 20 to 25% of the tree's finished height. So for a 12 inch tall bonsai the trunk should likely be 2 to 3 inches in diameter at a minimum.

So you let the deciduous tree seedling grow until it's diameter is 2 to 3 inches. Then you make the very first cut. The tree might be 5 feet tall by the time it finally has a 2 inch diameter trunk. That's okay, we bring trees down to bonsai size, we normally don't grow them up to bonsai size. Back to your now 5 ft tall tree, cut the tree back to 4 inches, grow out the next segment of trunk. When diameter of second segment is half or more the diameter of the first, cut the second segment off at about 6 inches, from here you will be working on branches.

Growing from seed is a long slow process, taking many years. And most of the time the future bonsai will be much larger than it's finished size in order to create trunk diameter and taper to correct diameter branches.

Are you talking flare at base of trunk (trunk not roots)?...and if so, I get sumo trees, but I thought the general rule of thumb was 1:6..?

 

[Anthony]

When the seedling is 1 inch trunk to 6 inch height.
What height you aiming for - 2 inch trunk, 3 inch trunk x 6.

Please try ground growing.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I tried ground growing but it just compacted everytime I watered it. I feel I ended up with less ground than I begun with.

Sorry for the lame joke but I had to do it some time.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@TN_Jim you are not wrong, the measurements came from a survey of awarded trees.
I'm talking about trunk diameter well above the nebari, above the basal root flare or the trunk buttress.

The ratio of diameter to height depends on the image being created. A forest tree, reaching high up for light might be 1:20. An ancient looking, gnarled, twisted, old looking tree might be 1:3. I'm mostly writing from memory. Saw an article where the ratio of diameter to height was measured for some significant number of award winning bonsai. There are no hard and fast rules but the majority of trees that get recognised as exceptional all fell into the 1:5 to 1:3 range. There were awarded outliers on both end. Majority of forest plantings the main trees were 1:20 to 1:10. If I'm remembering the article correctly. If the original author is reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. Article is more than 5 years old, I don't remember where I read it.

So I'm talking about rough guidelines, there's no hard and fast rule, no bonsai police. But there is evidence that diameter to height ratio does count if you want a visually appealing tree. A tree that looks like a tree, that creates a image of "tree".

So exact numbers don't really matter. It just needs to look like a tree, rather than a shrub in a pot.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

So I'm talking about rough guidelines, there's no hard and fast rule, no bonsai police.

I agree, it is risky to start putting ratios down in writing. There are as many exceptions to any proposed ideal as there are trees that follow it.

@TN_Jim
But there is evidence that diameter to height ratio does count if you want a visually appealing tree.

What you are basically saying is that all trees have a trunk-diameter to tree-height ratio, which is not only an inherent trait of all trees but actually applies more generally: all things that have height, have width.

Trunk diameter is a trait that inevitably features in the appearance of a tree, but I think there is not much more than that which can be said with full confidence. So much is dependent on personal taste and preference.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

If the plant in front of you has relatively thin trunk or multiple trunks, without taper, and branches nearly equal to the diameter of the trunk, the eye will tend to say "shrub". The guidelines help the eye to say "tree".

The whole point of bonsai is the image created. And the image should evoke an emotional response, usually to that of "tree" or an emotional response that a tree can evoke. It does not have to be a literal tree in miniature proportions, bonsai is not model railroading. However there are some guidelines that have a better chance of achieving the desired effect, which are useful, if one does not have a clear vision for a work in progress.

 

[TN_Jim]

@TN_Jim Saw an article where the ratio of diameter to height was measured for some significant number of award winning bonsai. There are no hard and fast rules but the majority of trees that get recognised as exceptional all fell into the 1:5 to 1:3 range. There were awarded outliers on both end.

Much appreciated Leo. This (quoted) is especially interesting and enlightening.

Having several collected and chopped last year, and likely a few more this coming collecting season, these are considerations much on my plate.

One thing I’ve heard echoed much on the forum and will heed more attentively in the future, is -chop lower...and I believe this aside is something much related to what you have alluded to in these regards.
Thanks

 

[substratum]

2pm

Three characters, communicating volumes, even to the point of interpretation and commentary. Brilliant.