The forbidden trials: Indoor junipers

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Right, right, before you jump on the bandwagon: I know.
I know it shouldn't be done and I know this could end in disaster (losing 200 seedlings). Frankly, I don't care. It's my money, my time, my electrical bill.
Take a seat and enjoy the ride, maybe laugh in my face at the final station, or just get in another train.
This is an experiment, nothing more, nothing less. I might get something out of it, I might not.

After some special junipers decided to germinate, I had no place to put them. I'm not sure if they are hardy and I'm not going to take a risk with just 2% germination rates and seeds being unavailable for 95% of the year (apart from being expensive). So my phoenicean junipers were put under LED lights. To much of my surprise, they acted just like the junipers I have outdoors. They don't seem to stretch and they don't seem to go wonky like plants looking for light tend to do.
So naturally, one would wait for a longer period to check if these conditions are right. I did no such thing.
10 grams of osteosperma, scopulorum and ERC went through stratification; a few months in the fridge before they were placed outdoors to get some frost. They started to germinate during some warmer days and away they went.. Indoors. Under LED. More popped up!
Some packages arrived, oh boy! Now there are 75 chinensis seeds being stratified and 75 went straight into the soil a few days ago.

Will 45W of 6500K LED be sufficient? I believe not. But! If the distance between plant and light is smaller, it seems to keep them from stretching. I'm making a raised stand as we speak, so I can lift the others as well.



Subjects 1 and 2: J. phoenicea var. turbinata. Distance to LED is about 10cm. The left one had an auxin accident. And that's a spider web btw.


Subject group 2: J. osteosperma. They don't seem to stretch a lot, but we'll see how the internodes will come out. Distance to LEDs is about 30cm.


Subject group 3: J. Vagina. These are actually stretching and looking for light. Might be a germination coupled auxin thingy. Distance to LEDs is about 30cm.


Subject group 4: J. scopulorum. These are stretching as well, but some are not. Distance to LEDs is about 30cm.


This thread is meant to keep track of their performance under LED light, and to see how on earth I'm ever getting them outdoors. Have you ever transferred a LED-grown plant to full sun? If you have.. You know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, be prepared to see all of them being burned alive by some soft sunlight.
It's quite the challenge! And I like it that way.

Happy new year everyone!

 

[brentwood]

I did tomatoes in the cellar, remember it took a couple days to get them hardened up for the move outdoors. I like how close to the light you are- that was my big lesson learned with grow lights, was never more than a few inches away from the plants. Really, just tomatoes.

B

 

[Anthony]

Guy,

Jack Wickle, did the Juniper for years in his basement,under
fluorescent lights.
You can Google his name for more information.
Happy New Year.
Anthony

 

[penumbra]

Nearly anything can be grown inside under lights providing it isn't in need of a cold period. Young plants in particular, especially plants like junipers, can often be grown for a few years inside before needing a dormant period. A more significant issue when growing inside would be mite and insect control.

 

[Nybonsai12]

Subject group 3: J. Vagina.

Teeheee......


but seriously good luck with your experiments. I've started a couple different species indoors early over the winter and then moved them outside once temps allow. It's fun and hope you have good success.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The pests are a thing, but the only pests I get here are gnats, spider mites and thrips. The latter two can be dealt with by using neem. The gnats will disappear when the soil dries and the larvae dessicate.

I've been growing tropicals and "tomatoes, I swear" indoors for a decade now, so I'm expecting nothing I haven't dealt with before.

For now, it's all a matter of establishing a watering schedule.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

The juniperus vaginas are stretching? Hmm ?

 

[just.wing.it]

Teeheee......


but seriously good luck with your experiments. I've started a couple different species indoors early over the winter and then moved them outside once temps allow. It's fun and hope you have good success.

?

 

[MiguelMC]

I was thinking about adding a bench in my Home office with some trees under grow lights, I Have a balcony on the office that allows for a lot of light to come in, but i was hoping to add a bit more with the grow lights. I've searching some info about about but so far I haven't got anything truly substantial. like minimum lux/lumen requirements. I hope your experiment goes well and that we can take some knowledge from it as well.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have grown plants under both fluorescent lights as well as LED and MH and HPS.
For CFL's I can recommend Cool white as a spectrum indication, 1200 lumens minimum, x 4 lights per plant. At max 20cm distance from the plant.
For LED I have no substantial data other than 6500K doing just fine. There is good information on COB leds that a lot of cannabis growers use.
MH would be best, HPS second, but they produce an awfull lot of heat.
I have used neon lights at 20.000 lumens each, but they too get pretty warm.

There's a lot of information about PARs and what not. But I found that trials can be set up cheap (ask your store for a few samples, sow a few cheap seeds) and that most modern led lights actually do pretty well for plants, after some time adjusting. I haven't looked into the details before I bought these, I took a leap and it turned out alright.

 

[MiguelMC]

I have grown plants under both fluorescent lights as well as LED and MH and HPS.
For CFL's I can recommend Cool white as a spectrum indication, 1200 lumens minimum, x 4 lights per plant. At max 20cm distance from the plant.
For LED I have no substantial data other than 6500K doing just fine. There is good information on COB leds that a lot of cannabis growers use.
MH would be best, HPS second, but they produce an awfull lot of heat.
I have used neon lights at 20.000 lumens each, but they too get pretty warm.

There's a lot of information about PARs and what not. But I found that trials can be set up cheap (ask your store for a few samples, sow a few cheap seeds) and that most modern led lights actually do pretty well for plants, after some time adjusting. I haven't looked into the details before I bought these, I took a leap and it turned out alright.

what i do know about CFL is that they're bulbs, isnt' T5 or T8 a better option? from what I've gather most ppl tend to recommend 2x 2k lumen T5. Ive seen some specialized led grow lights but they not only look weak they are quite expensive, the only thing they have going (from what I've seen) is the color configuration

 

[Mike Hennigan]

what i do know about CFL is that they're bulbs, isnt' T5 or T8 a better option? from what I've gather most ppl tend to recommend 2x 2k lumen T5. Ive seen some specialized led grow lights but they not only look weak they are quite expensive, the only thing they have going (from what I've seen) is the color configuration

Yes, go with T5, I have a T5 grow fixture and works great. T5 are the brightest I think? I did a bunch of research a while back when I bought the light, can’t remember what exactly the science was concerning T5 bulbs.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

T5 is what I broke out of my previous setup.
They did exceptionally well compared to CFL because they pack more lumens per area. Cfl's are round and almost always that twisted bulb shape, they lose 50% of their effectiveness because light is literally shining towards the inside of the bulb. T5 doesn't have that problem, they're flat and direct just 10-20% of all their light towards the center.
Cfl and T5 both lean on the fluorescent light principle, so apart from power and shape, there is little difference in spectrum or optimal distance to plant.

But, the two brands of T5 we can get here, last about 6 months before all electrical works have to be replaced.
The framework + starters are 60 bucks, bulbs go for 30 a piece. That's 120 for a complete set. 240 bucks a year.
These leds will last around 4 years and the amp has a 4 year warranty, all together they did cost me a whopping 70 bucks, and I can add a few meters of lights for 35 bucks whevener I want. The amp is a bit overpowered.
The aluminium framework I built was the most expensive part really.

It's more of an economic decision than anything else. + the fact that these leds don't get very hot, so I can keep them on during the summer.

The leds I have are regular (although a bit more on the powerfull side) consumer led-strips. 100% water proof too!
I have seen plants get decent growth with regular consumer LED flood lights as well.
It's not optimal, hell naw, but it works well enough for me to forget about T5's and other lights.
It saves me at least 200 bucks a year on hardware and about as much on the electrical bill. I went from 150 watts/hour with t5's to 35watts/hour with LED.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

It seems that the distance to the lights makes all the difference. Stretchy growth has been halted and fresh juvenile foliage is popping up.

For the people interested, I log just about everything:
Temp max: 22 degrees C. Max reached at lights on + 1 hour.
Temp min: 15 degrees C. Min reached at lights out + 5 hours.
Average humidity: 45%
Light / Dark period: 18/6
Ambient room temperatures: 17 degrees C from 11:00-19:00 and around 10 degrees C from 19:00-11:00.
Days until soil dries: 3-5.

Temperature measurements are done at the center of the growth cabinet, in direct air flow. This means that actual soil temperatures and foliage temperatures are about 5 degrees C higher than the average measurements due to them being closer to the light source.

 

[brentwood]

Thanks to the magic of Facebook, found this pic of my"tomatoes"... More light than it looks like, but as close to the plants as I remembered... This has to be close to moving them outside, was able to plant them in our parks gardens just a couple weeks later .
Brent

 

[Deleted member 21616]

@brentwood i've been starting tomatoes indoors (along with many other vegetables) for years, but i've only ever used a south-facing window. Do you find that the lights help a lot? (have you tried plain old window light?) Are you also using a heat mat?

 

[coh]

I'll throw my 2 cents in - haven't started any tomatoes indoors for a few years now, but in the past I've had better results using artificial
light (usually regular fluorescents) than in front of a window. At least around here, early spring is still usually very cloudy and the light is
weak and unpredictable. If you have more reliable sun that might work better. I also got the best growth (compact and not leggy) when
I grew them in the basement where it was cooler, I think cooler conditions promote more compact growth.

 

[brentwood]

I just read that weak light equaled plants that stretched for it, gibes with your window comment. Never thought about the cool cellar, good thought. I used cheap shop lights on chain that let me adjust the height easily. Ended up with 30 healthy heirloom tomato plants that year, some nice early broccoli.
B

 

[brentwood]

@brentwood i've been starting tomatoes indoors (along with many other vegetables) for years, but i've only ever used a south-facing window. Do you find that the lights help a lot? (have you tried plain old window light?) Are you also using a heat mat?

I've only used the lights as a seed starter, never tried with bonsai. Yet. No mat, was pretty low budget setup
B

 

[coh]

I just read that weak light equaled plants that stretched for it, gibes with your window comment. Never thought about the cool cellar, good thought. I used cheap shop lights on chain that let me adjust the height easily. Ended up with 30 healthy heirloom tomato plants that year, some nice early broccoli.
B

I think it is the night temperature that plays a role in the legginess. There are others here who are more up on plant physiology, but that's what I remember
reading at the time. Leggy growth promoted by both weak light and warm night temps.