The secret to growing bonsai. A thread inspired by Bolero.

[Vance Wood]

Imagination is the mind reshuffling things already seen or experienced.

To imagine one must first - "see"
Anthony

It is surprising how many do not see, at least beyond what they have imprinted on their memories. They have memories of this form, that form and another form way over there. They have names for all of them but few are able to only see the basic profile. Of all the forms and styles they cannot see the things that really make that form work therefore usually a tree is treated in the dial a bonsai method, aka cookie cutter bonsai.

Most of todays bonsai are boring and lack any kind of creativity that indicates a tendency for free thought. I don't mean to be critical I only look at my journey through the realm of the septic tank bonsai and realize that I am looking at myself. I wish not to judge anyone here just point out what I see and have seen in myself and the realization that I cannot change what is before me if I continue to think it is going to magically transform into a world class bonsai just because I wish it to. It is wonderful to fantasize these kinds of trees and create the illusion but fantasy is not truth. If it is not worked for it is only a delusion. Many get up in the morning and fantasize what they are going to do with their trees this day and before lunch they have done nothing---- by dinner they are not even thinking about it.

 

[shinmai]

Interesting. I have been a guitarist for the better part of fifty years. In my youth, I toured and recorded, performing original compositions on solo steel-string guitar. I remember many times incorporating a theme or phrase, only to have it dawn on me that I was repeated an unconscious recollection of something I'd heard elsewhere before.
In the context of bonsai, I personally have zero interest in exhibition or competition. I do this for my own enjoyment, and to learn new things. Leo Kottke, probably one of the most influential fingerstyle guitarists in the last fifty years, refuses to be a judge for guitar festival competitions. His position is that art is about self-expression, and that the moment it becomes competitive, it becomes about everyone else, not the artist.
Far be it from me to poke that dog lying so peacefully asleep, but one might suggest that a bonsai styled to conform to a set of formalized rules or expectations may move from the realm of art to that of craft, to whatever extent it becomes less about self expression and more about conformity. The musically-inclined might compare two versions of Bach's Bouree from the Lute Suite in E minor, Julian Bream's mathematical, sterile rendition on classical guitar, and Kottke's 12-string version with much more expressive phrasing and dynamics. I would submit that Bream bordered on craft, while Kottke was the more artistic. Then there's the flute version by Jethro Tull on the 'Stand Up' album, if you really want to muddy the water. But what do I know? For the bonus round, check youtube for Michael Hedges doing the cello suite in G major on a harp guitar...that man was an artist, and that recording is indeed art.

 

[Vance Wood]

Interesting. I have been a guitarist for the better part of fifty years. In my youth, I toured and recorded, performing original compositions on solo steel-string guitar. I remember many times incorporating a theme or phrase, only to have it dawn on me that I was repeated an unconscious recollection of something I'd heard elsewhere before.
In the context of bonsai, I personally have zero interest in exhibition or competition. I do this for my own enjoyment, and to learn new things. Leo Kottke, probably one of the most influential fingerstyle guitarists in the last fifty years, refuses to be a judge for guitar festival competitions. His position is that art is about self-expression, and that the moment it becomes competitive, it becomes about everyone else, not the artist.
Far be it from me to poke that dog lying so peacefully asleep, but one might suggest that a bonsai styled to conform to a set of formalized rules or expectations may move from the realm of art to that of craft, to whatever extent it becomes less about self expression and more about conformity. The musically-inclined might compare two versions of Bach's Bouree from the Lute Suite in E minor, Julian Bream's mathematical, sterile rendition on classical guitar, and Kottke's 12-string version with much more expressive phrasing and dynamics. I would submit that Bream bordered on craft, while Kottke was the more artistic. Then there's the flute version by Jethro Tull on the 'Stand Up' album, if you really want to muddy the water. But what do I know? For the bonus round, check youtube for Michael Hedges doing the cello suite in G major on a harp guitar...that man was an artist, and that recording is indeed art.

What good is art if it is not shared other than some sort of sophisticated high end masturbation of your psyche?

 

[shinmai]

Unless I missed something, no one is suggesting that art is not to be shared. There's a big difference between sharing one's art, and doing it for the judgement of others. If anyone wants to share what I'm doing, they need only come by, and have a beer in the process. If they like what I'm doing, great. If not, that's okay too.
As to the nature of your question, when it comes to the topic of masturbation, of the psyche or otherwise, my limited expertise is clearly overmatched. Time to hit the ripcord--I'm out of here.

 

[Vance Wood]

Unless I missed something, no one is suggesting that art is not to be shared. There's a big difference between sharing one's art, and doing it for the judgement of others. If anyone wants to share what I'm doing, they need only come by, and have a beer in the process. If they like what I'm doing, great. If not, that's okay too.
As to the nature of your question, when it comes to the topic of masturbation, of the psyche or otherwise, my limited expertise is clearly overmatched. Time to hit the ripcord--I'm out of here.

Shinmai wrote: In the context of bonsai, I personally have zero interest in exhibition or competition.

Misplaced metaphor or not, the argument has been used by some who do not wish to exhibit their trees, I don't know why, other than some are terrified by the thought of someone judging their efforts. You have to ask yourself this question: If someone had not shown their trees you would not have looked at them and coveted the same accomplishment.

 

[just.wing.it]

Shinmai wrote: In the context of bonsai, I personally have zero interest in exhibition or competition.

Misplaced metaphor or not, the argument has been used by some who do not wish to exhibit their trees, I don't know why, other than some are terrified by the thought of someone judging their efforts. You have to ask yourself this question: If someone had not shown their trees you would not have looked at them and coveted the same accomplishment.

Your point is inarguable, Vance....
And I now agree...after 3 years...

I think what @shinmai 's point is, or where it comes from is this...:
It's not fear of having one's efforts judged.
It's not even that far sighted.
It's only about personal satisfaction and creation of art for personal enjoyment of the artist.
There is no need to make it a competition, it's very personal.

That's how I felt about it at first.
I had no interest at all in showing my trees, they were for me.

But now, I think about making a tree nice enough that I could donate it to the National Arboretum in DC some day....
Just for the reasons you said.
That was the first place I really saw good bonsai in person....and I'd love to contribute.
I now also think that having my trees judged would make me better at what I do....and the competition is all friendly and fun, I'm sure.

 

[Anthony]

Don't mind showing, not interested in exhibition for prizes.

Prefer having friends who do Bonsai over and walk around chatting.
Prefer folk who are self motivated and don't need a group to get anything done.

Understand good design and health, but not the need for a medal.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

Don't mind showing, not interested in exhibition for prizes.

Prefer having friends who do Bonsai over and walk around chatting.
Prefer folk who are self motivated and don't need a group to get anything done.

Understand good design and health, but not the need for a medal.
Good Day
Anthony

You don't have to compete, that's a personal choice, but advancing in the art, even in your own mind for better or worse, depends on comparison. How do you know what's possible if you do not see what other people have done and how your efforts measure up to those efforts or compare to them? If the form of bonsai is what lured you down the road of putting trees in pots and making them look like real trees in miniature and not just a tree in a pot, Why do you insist you are doing it for yourself as an excuse for not trying to advance in the art?

Why are you growing bonsai at all understanding that in the scheme of things bonsai is pretty useless? Why don't you just grow tomatoes, or something else useful? This is the same question all of us that grow bonsai are dealing with, we really don't understand why we grow bonsai at all, and instead of coming to grips with ourselves we sometimes look for ways to shrug off the argument. I think I know why we grow them and why most people that grow them are men but I will leave that to you to determine for your selves, this is something worth thinking about, something with very deep implications.

Do we need medals? NO; but sometimes finding out what some people you consider worthy of listening to think of your work is valuable if not frustrating. The more you dig into bonsai the more you understand that bonsai is far more than growing something in a pot, it is about achieving an artistic goal. When this point of understanding is reached some bail from the art screaming I just want to grow bonsai for my own amusement, and that's fine too. But more importantly do we need bonsai? Here is one of the peculiarities of this subject; many think you should not judge bonsai and will go to war with those who think it't vital to bonsai. What they are really saying is that you should not and can not judge my bonsai.

Some will try to claim their paucity in doing bonsai is the high ground that should be achieved. Sadly this is the state of the local bonsai club mind set and the source of the poor quality of the trees produced. Let me end with this, if the goal is to produce junk and you know you are producing junk--- how do you know it's junk? There are two ways to answer this; one is to ignore everything else but your own work, or compare what you are doing with others.

 

[wireme]

Why are you growing bonsai at all understanding that in the scheme of things bonsai is pretty useless? Why don't you just grow tomatoes, or something else useful?

That there is my biggest "problem" with my bonsai habit. Could be producing a lot of good quality food for the family with the time space and effort that the silly trees take. It's a full on ridiculous thing to do really.
Oh well, someday I'll manage to get more of the yard fenced off here and do both again. I miss my garden, moved away from a home that had a good one about 3 yrs ago, haven't established much of one here yet.

 

[Vance Wood]

That there is my biggest "problem" with my bonsai habit. Could be producing a lot of good quality food for the family with the time space and effort that the silly trees take. It's a full on ridiculous thing to do really.
Oh well, someday I'll manage to get more of the yard fenced off here and do both again. I miss my garden, moved away from a home that had a good one about 3 yrs ago, haven't established much of one here yet.

You still have not come to grips with why bonsai attracts you and makes you provide time for it.

 

[Vin]

What good is art if it is not shared other than some sort of sophisticated high end masturbation of your psyche?

You know where that one is headed.. (for those new to your colorful tongue) https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/the-incomparable-vance-wood.15541/

 

[Adair M]

Interesting. I have been a guitarist for the better part of fifty years. In my youth, I toured and recorded, performing original compositions on solo steel-string guitar. I remember many times incorporating a theme or phrase, only to have it dawn on me that I was repeated an unconscious recollection of something I'd heard elsewhere before.
In the context of bonsai, I personally have zero interest in exhibition or competition. I do this for my own enjoyment, and to learn new things. Leo Kottke, probably one of the most influential fingerstyle guitarists in the last fifty years, refuses to be a judge for guitar festival competitions. His position is that art is about self-expression, and that the moment it becomes competitive, it becomes about everyone else, not the artist.
Far be it from me to poke that dog lying so peacefully asleep, but one might suggest that a bonsai styled to conform to a set of formalized rules or expectations may move from the realm of art to that of craft, to whatever extent it becomes less about self expression and more about conformity. The musically-inclined might compare two versions of Bach's Bouree from the Lute Suite in E minor, Julian Bream's mathematical, sterile rendition on classical guitar, and Kottke's 12-string version with much more expressive phrasing and dynamics. I would submit that Bream bordered on craft, while Kottke was the more artistic. Then there's the flute version by Jethro Tull on the 'Stand Up' album, if you really want to muddy the water. But what do I know? For the bonus round, check youtube for Michael Hedges doing the cello suite in G major on a harp guitar...that man was an artist, and that recording is indeed art.

Interesting. I have been a guitarist for the better part of fifty years. In my youth, I toured and recorded, performing original compositions on solo steel-string guitar. I remember many times incorporating a theme or phrase, only to have it dawn on me that I was repeated an unconscious recollection of something I'd heard elsewhere before.
In the context of bonsai, I personally have zero interest in exhibition or competition. I do this for my own enjoyment, and to learn new things. Leo Kottke, probably one of the most influential fingerstyle guitarists in the last fifty years, refuses to be a judge for guitar festival competitions. His position is that art is about self-expression, and that the moment it becomes competitive, it becomes about everyone else, not the artist.
Far be it from me to poke that dog lying so peacefully asleep, but one might suggest that a bonsai styled to conform to a set of formalized rules or expectations may move from the realm of art to that of craft, to whatever extent it becomes less about self expression and more about conformity. The musically-inclined might compare two versions of Bach's Bouree from the Lute Suite in E minor, Julian Bream's mathematical, sterile rendition on classical guitar, and Kottke's 12-string version with much more expressive phrasing and dynamics. I would submit that Bream bordered on craft, while Kottke was the more artistic. Then there's the flute version by Jethro Tull on the 'Stand Up' album, if you really want to muddy the water. But what do I know? For the bonus round, check youtube for Michael Hedges doing the cello suite in G major on a harp guitar...that man was an artist, and that recording is indeed art.

Back in the day, I played Classical Guitar. I never cared much for Julian Bream. I preferred Christopher Parkening.

 

[Vance Wood]

Wow, back before I lost the feeling in my hands I butchered Bach on the Guitar and doodled some Dowland on the Lute.

 

[Anthony]

Why do I help grow Bonsai -

a] Mentally relaxing, yet mentally stimulating

b] Personal sense of Achievement from keeping a tree alive and seeing the Design come to life

c] Exercise with purpose [ we do grow vegetables down here, organically as well ]

d ] Positive affect it has on friends / people.

It is an all around positive situation,
Eh Vance.
Good Day
Anthony

* Never got past the recorder, though would have enjoyed learning to play the Sitar.

 

[Vance Wood]

Why do I help grow Bonsai -

a] Mentally relaxing, yet mentally stimulating

b] Personal sense of Achievement from keeping a tree alive and seeing the Design come to life

c] Exercise with purpose [ we do grow vegetables down here, organically as well ]

d ] Positive affect it has on friends / people.

It is an all around positive situation,
Eh Vance.
Good Day
Anthony

* Never got past the recorder, though would have enjoyed learning to play the Sitar.

Believe it or not I played one of those things too. I sold it for my first Lute.

 

[M. Frary]

Back in the day, I played Classical Guitar. I never cared much for Julian Bream. I preferred Christopher Parkening

I prefer Dave Mustaine.
Dangerous Dave isn't a well known classical guitarist.

 

[chansen]

Interesting. I have been a guitarist for the better part of fifty years. In my youth, I toured and recorded, performing original compositions on solo steel-string guitar. I remember many times incorporating a theme or phrase, only to have it dawn on me that I was repeated an unconscious recollection of something I'd heard elsewhere before.
In the context of bonsai, I personally have zero interest in exhibition or competition. I do this for my own enjoyment, and to learn new things. Leo Kottke, probably one of the most influential fingerstyle guitarists in the last fifty years, refuses to be a judge for guitar festival competitions. His position is that art is about self-expression, and that the moment it becomes competitive, it becomes about everyone else, not the artist.
Far be it from me to poke that dog lying so peacefully asleep, but one might suggest that a bonsai styled to conform to a set of formalized rules or expectations may move from the realm of art to that of craft, to whatever extent it becomes less about self expression and more about conformity. The musically-inclined might compare two versions of Bach's Bouree from the Lute Suite in E minor, Julian Bream's mathematical, sterile rendition on classical guitar, and Kottke's 12-string version with much more expressive phrasing and dynamics. I would submit that Bream bordered on craft, while Kottke was the more artistic. Then there's the flute version by Jethro Tull on the 'Stand Up' album, if you really want to muddy the water. But what do I know? For the bonus round, check youtube for Michael Hedges doing the cello suite in G major on a harp guitar...that man was an artist, and that recording is indeed art.

Pretty thoughtful response, thanks for sharing.

I know the head Nut has said in the past, that we stick to conforming styles because there's a limited set of of aesthetic principles that 'work' with visual arts. I won't pretend to be a musician, but I've spent a fair amount of time in and around music, and the ideas are the same (there are certain harmonies that work, etc.). There's a small place where we can play to break some boundaries while still delivering something good. But you can't really effectively use the wiggle room in that space without first mastering the basics, at least that's my view. Some people just inherently get the visual arts more than others. I work as an IT security auditor. Guess where I fall on the spectrum .

Your example of Bream vs. Kottke is the same that I've seen in the bonsai world. When I was at Michael Hagedorn's for a weekend intensive in the spring, we spoke a lot about "rules" etc. Basically artistic concepts that we should learn and understand. Sort of like book learning, if you will.

But when I watched Michael review our decisions on something, say the position of a tree in a pot (repotting class), in many cases he would make a small tweak that added a small amount of extra detail that made the composition better. He would take things from the textbook to one step further. The difference between what I saw and what he saw is based on years of experience in bonsai, that I just don't have as a backyard hobbyist. I get to spend very little time each day working with trees, and he spends hours each day, year after year working with trees. It will take me a lifetime to build up the same number of hours that he has (or any full time professional for that matter).

Exhibiting a tree gives me a small chance to accelerate some of that learning by seeing what I've done in comparison to others that are more experienced. I use it to learn, not to win (though winning is nice... , not that I'd know). I don't have a problem if someone only pursues bonsai for their own fulfillment. Ultimately, that's a large part for me too. But I don't like the feeling that my progression has stopped, so I try to push myself outside my comfort zone and grow a little more.

 

[shinmai]

I actually met Chris Parkening once. I was living in South Bend in the late 70's, and he happened to be friends with the owner of a mostly-classical guitar shop just over the line into Michigan. He was performing in the area, had stopped in to visit the owner, and I walked in to buy strings or something. I remember him being gracious, friendly, and not at all that intense personality that some classical virtuosos have. I didn't realize until some time later just what a big deal he was. [Met Muhammad Ali around the same time, too, but that's a different art form.] I haven't played at all for the last two or three years, and am headed toward a fusion of my right wrist the first week of December.

Vance raises some good existential questions. One might presuppose that in the final analysis, all human activity is futile, and ultimately without meaning. In that context, what is the rationale for anything that we do? I suggest it is to provide momentary meaning, within our limited lifespan, and to keep futility at bay. [I read too much Kierkegaard and Hegel in college.]

To be clear, it is competition with which I have an issue, not comparison. Far from it--I inhale books, pictures, videos, visit gardens and conservatories, in an unceasing effort to learn and gain a frame of reference. I have several reasons why I explore bonsai, all of them personal and probably none of them unique to me. As to Vance's overarching question of why, I would hazard a guess. Robin Williams once said that it is not the opposable thumb, or the use of tools, that separate us from the animals; rather, it is the fact that we are not afraid of vacuum cleaners. I believe that what separates us from the animals is the ability to create beauty, and in doing so, by varying degrees we leave behind the profane and move closer to divinity. In the absence of beauty, we would have nothing with which to save ourselves from despair.

 

[Vance Wood]

I actually met Chris Parkening once. I was living in South Bend in the late 70's, and he happened to be friends with the owner of a mostly-classical guitar shop just over the line into Michigan. He was performing in the area, had stopped in to visit the owner, and I walked in to buy strings or something. I remember him being gracious, friendly, and not at all that intense personality that some classical virtuosos have. I didn't realize until some time later just what a big deal he was. [Met Muhammad Ali around the same time, too, but that's a different art form.] I haven't played at all for the last two or three years, and am headed toward a fusion of my right wrist the first week of December.

Vance raises some good existential questions. One might presuppose that in the final analysis, all human activity is futile, and ultimately without meaning. In that context, what is the rationale for anything that we do? I suggest it is to provide momentary meaning, within our limited lifespan, and to keep futility at bay. [I read too much Kierkegaard and Hegel in college.]

To be clear, it is competition with which I have an issue, not comparison. Far from it--I inhale books, pictures, videos, visit gardens and conservatories, in an unceasing effort to learn and gain a frame of reference. I have several reasons why I explore bonsai, all of them personal and probably none of them unique to me. As to Vance's overarching question of why, I would hazard a guess. Robin Williams once said that it is not the opposable thumb, or the use of tools, that separate us from the animals; rather, it is the fact that we are not afraid of vacuum cleaners. I believe that what separates us from the animals is the ability to create beauty, and in doing so, by varying degrees we leave behind the profane and move closer to divinity. In the absence of beauty, we would have nothing with which to save ourselves from despair.

That's getting there.

 

[wireme]

You still have not come to grips with why bonsai attracts you and makes you provide time for it.

Well, maybe I have, maybe I haven't. In any case I am very aware that bonsai trees are not food, shelter or water, the real necessities. Food for the soul maybe you could say but we could all live without them although I'm sure the hobby does extend life span for many getting into old age. The last couple years for me have been more difficult to provide just the basic necessities for the family than has been the case in the past so it definitely has been on my mind more. Like the thought," what the hell am I doing with all these stupid trees, I could be gardening. " We do produced a lot of food here actually, 30+ lbs of mushrooms per week from the backyard all summer. Aside from selling them we trade for lots of good fresh local produce too. So it all works but it's not always easy. I've never spent a whole lot on the tree thing. A whopping $14 this season on fert, that's it, not one other thing. There are hidden costs like loss of garden space and loss of time that could be productive in other ways.

If I couldn't figure out any reasons why I keep the trees around they would not be.