The Social Isolation Thread

[JudyB]

I hope everyone recognizes that air layering is a technique that is useful in certain circumstances, however it affects the longevity of the Bonsai. Frequently it causes long term issues with the trunk and overall health of the tree, shortening it's useful life as a Bonsai. Thus best to treat as a second best option, rather than a great way to create more Bonsai.
For this reason root grafting may be a better option in some cases. Producing cuttings to propagate may be better in the long run in some cases.?
Not sure why but there is very little discussion of the long term effects of sawing off the trunk after air layering!
For example how long before rot sets in and affects the tree! Can you actually prevent this from happening?
I am just suggesting that it is important to understand the long term effects, not just the short term improvements.

Or sorry are you speaking about ground layering and I misunderstood perhaps?

 

[River's Edge]

Interesting point! I always wondered how people managed to get plants to callus over that part. I cuttings that's easy, it just happens. But with air layers, especially big ones, that seems to be a possible issue.

I raised the point to see how many people were actually aware of the issues! I suspect not so many based on the freely given advice to air layer so often! Huge differences between species!.

 

[River's Edge]

Or sorry are you speaking about ground layering and I misunderstood perhaps?

Nope, speaking about the air layered portion that is then placed in the soil for healing. It is true that the callus effect is strong and some species handle it very well. It is also true that some species do not and the result is rot within the trunk and a shortened bonsai life. The aftercare can make a difference. For example leaving a stub initially to help stabilize the air layer while the roots expand and then carefully carving and sealing the lower portion of the stump to aid healing completely over before rot sets in from the damp conditions in the soil. Another aid is to prevent over watering and ensure proper drainage while healing the scar. Trident maples are a good bet to heal over nicely after air layering whereas Korean Hornbeam are less likely to heal over as well. I think it is important to have specific knowledge of each species before attempting generic advice applies to all.
Ground layering typically exposes far less area and is much less of a risk for internal rot.

 

[Shibui]

Ground layering typically exposes far less area and is much less of a risk for internal rot.

Surely ground layering is much the same as air layering? After the roots are strong enough the redundant base is sawed off leaving a raw edge which is then planted into damp soil - almost exactly like air layer. Some sealing is appropriate with larger diameter cuts but I would say both ground and air layers need that treatment.
Trident maples definitely heal over quickly but one unintended consequence is the large callus that can form meaning that the base of the tree is not as shallow as intended. I have tridents that have had the base planed to reduce the large callus every 3 or 4 years just so they will sit in the pots.

Does internal rot really endanger the life of a bonsai? I've seen many venerable old trees with hollow trunks. Some have lived that way for many years. The internal part that rots is not really living. The outer living tissues are much more resistant to the rotting processes and usually survive or does that resistance vary according to species?
Occasionally I have had trees rot inside the trunk but I have not noticed any health issues with those - tridents and Japanese maples in most cases.

 

[BrianBay9]

I raised the point to see how many people were actually aware of the issues! I suspect not so many based on the freely given advice to air layer so often! Huge differences between species!.

Have you had tree that have died due to rot from an air layer? I have not experienced this and would be curious if you had examples. Which species seem to be prone to this problem in your experience?

 

[River's Edge]

Surely ground layering is much the same as air layering? After the roots are strong enough the redundant base is sawed off leaving a raw edge which is then planted into damp soil - almost exactly like air layer. Some sealing is appropriate with larger diameter cuts but I would say both ground and air layers need that treatment.
Trident maples definitely heal over quickly but one unintended consequence is the large callus that can form meaning that the base of the tree is not as shallow as intended. I have tridents that have had the base planed to reduce the large callus every 3 or 4 years just so they will sit in the pots.

Does internal rot really endanger the life of a bonsai? I've seen many venerable old trees with hollow trunks. Some have lived that way for many years. The internal part that rots is not really living. The outer living tissues are much more resistant to the rotting processes and usually survive or does that resistance vary according to species?
Occasionally I have had trees rot inside the trunk but I have not noticed any health issues with those - tridents and Japanese maples in most cases.

Ground layering is the term often used to describe the process of propagation where a young shoot is buried partially in the ground, roots emerge from the buried part and the shoot is severed to create a new tree, very similar to cutting process. If you are using the term as you suggest above then the same limitations and care would prevail.
It is true that a tree with internal rot can continue to live, and can be hollowed out for design purposes. Starting a young tree on its life of Bonsai in this manner may not always be the best development practices! Design and refinement can best be accomplished with a healthy, thriving specimen. Not one weekend by internal rot and fungal issues.
However, my point is simply that the process should not be considered as one without its draw backs! I am comfortable if others feel the result is just as good as other developmental methods in their experience.

 

[River's Edge]

Have you had tree that have died due to rot from an air layer? I have not experienced this and would be curious if you had examples. Which species seem to be prone to this problem in your experience?

I personally have not, but I have rescued trees with this problem that others have tried to air layer! The method used was to hollow out the rotted area down to good wood seal and either fill or try to heal over. At least stop the rot in its tracks. Also, when studying with my teacher the discussion was raised during one of the intensive and the point was made that air layers can be prone to this problem over time and the resulting life as a Bonsai will be shorter!
I have produced lots of air layers with certain species, without problems but I avoid elms in particular.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Just when I thought I was done with projects...I found this San Jose yesterday for a steal!!!

2-3 inch trunk and height under 18 inches. Water was pushing hard, so I just guy wired a few branches down. It will get completely wired during summer dormancy.

Wow. Nice find, you'll be rock'n & rollin' muy pronto. In fact, it deserves its own thread, long term.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I hope everyone recognizes that air layering is a technique that is useful in certain circumstances, however it affects the longevity of the Bonsai. Frequently it causes long term issues with the trunk and overall health of the tree, shortening it's useful life as a Bonsai. Thus best to treat as a second best option, rather than a great way to create more Bonsai.
For this reason root grafting may be a better option in some cases. Producing cuttings to propagate may be better in the long run in some cases.
Not sure why but there is very little discussion of the long term effects of sawing off the trunk after air layering!
For example how long before rot sets in and affects the tree! Can you actually prevent this from happening?
I am just suggesting that it is important to understand the long term effects, not just the short term improvements.

I'd like to hear more on this by our educated elite.

 

[Shibui]

However, my point is simply that the process should not be considered as one without its draw backs!

Agree wholeheartedly. Most of the advice to layer is inappropriate in my opinion but mainly because the material is not worth the time or the time taken will just delay development of the real tree below.
All bonsai techniques have drawbacks that need to be considered. Problem is that many are promoted by enthusiastic beginners who have not actually done it or have not had the years after to see the final results.

 

[River's Edge]

I'd like to hear more on this by our educated elite.

It is not a difficult concept. Similar to grafting a branch can be useful but not as good as the natural branch occurring in the right location! The grafted branch is usually weaker and poses different aftercare issues. Also the results and possibilities vary within species. That is not to preclude it from being a valuable technique in certain circumstances.

 

[Carol 83]

It was 70 degrees today, so I got my 2 crapes in pots. One was just starting to show a couple of buds. The red pot is from @sorce, the blue one is Chuck Iker.

 

[HENDO]

I've been using some of my at home time to do what I meant to do weeks ago - here is one of them: wiring a budding bald cypress is very nerve wracking but I managed to get this one out of 2D candelabra mode without squishing too many buds. I'm sure I'm not the only one on here with "too many trees" so this is a great time to give them some attention!

 

[BrianBay9]

I personally have not, but I have rescued trees with this problem that others have tried to air layer! The method used was to hollow out the rotted area down to good wood seal and either fill or try to heal over. At least stop the rot in its tracks. Also, when studying with my teacher the discussion was raised during one of the intensive and the point was made that air layers can be prone to this problem over time and the resulting life as a Bonsai will be shorter!
I have produced lots of air layers with certain species, without problems but I avoid elms in particular.

Thanks for the additional information. I've only air layered deciduous trees. In my experience if the initial layer was successful producing roots then the tree did well. Of course I don't have any trees that have pushed their natural life span to know if these would die sooner. During repotting I've not seen a rotting problem, but that is not a controlled experiment by any means. I have many elms started from air layers. Perhaps mine have been smaller and therefore more likely to heal over before rotting.

 

[Nybonsai12]

More just for fun .A few years ago I dug my larger contorted white flowering quince. I didn’t get all the roots and this guy sprouted. I put it in a tiny pot where it will stay forever and wired into cascade. always one of the early risers.



two years ago I bought full moon maple seeds. Maybe 20. One sprouted and survived. I put this one in a tiny pot where it will stay forever.

 

[shinmai]

It was 70 degrees today, so I got my 2 crapes in pots. One was just starting to show a couple of buds. The red pot is from @sorce, the blue one is Chuck Iker.View attachment 291723View attachment 291724View attachment 291725

Wow, you and a blue pot, from Chuck, no less. I could never have imagined that combination!

 

[shinmai]

More just for fun .A few years ago I dug my larger contorted white flowering quince. I didn’t get all the roots and this guy sprouted. I put it in a tiny pot where it will stay forever and wired into cascade. always one of the early risers.
View attachment 291834


two years ago I bought full moon maple seeds. Maybe 20. One sprouted and survived. I put this one in a tiny pot where it will stay forever.
View attachment 291835

That painted pot will look just exquisite when the quince blooms. Nice choice!

 

[Adair M]

It is not a difficult concept. Similar to grafting a branch can be useful but not as good as the natural branch occurring in the right location! The grafted branch is usually weaker and poses different aftercare issues. Also the results and possibilities vary within species. That is not to preclude it from being a valuable technique in certain circumstances.

Frank, how is that any different than cutting back the underside of a trunk when repotting? I often take my large root pruners and nibble away at the base of a trunk from underneath, creating a flat base of the rootball. Maybe I’m just lucky, but I’ve never seen any rot from doing this.

 

[River's Edge]

Frank, how is that any different than cutting back the underside of a trunk when repotting? I often take my large root pruners and nibble away at the base of a trunk from underneath, creating a flat base of the rootball. Maybe I’m just lucky, but I’ve never seen any rot from doing this.

It is somewhat the same Adair, except when first severing an air layer the percentage of healthy roots is much smaller than when progressively reducing the base of an otherwise healthy tree. Also the severed portion may not grow well if not kept in the best of circumstances and optimum moisture conditions. And as I noted some species handle it extremely well, specially the vigorous deciduous such as Trident maple! However, the topic was, is it safe to recommend for all species and does it have some drawbacks? Actually it was Boon who first indicated to me that it can often lead to complications in some species and is not a recommended practice for others. We were discussing handouts in an intensive class June of 2010. When I check my written notes on the one handout the comment was" the air layer process is very long term and root grafting will give better results in a shorter period of time" The other handout indicates " the scar in the middle of the roots is due to the fact this tree was obtained by layering. Since the tree did not grow strongly and the wound did not deal well, a little of the wood has rotted. This part must be treated painstakingly so that it will callus over properly." The two handouts in question were focussed on creating Bonsai from deciduous trees.
I have seen quite a few examples of trees with hollowed out trunks to compensate for the issue arising after air layering!
It has not happened to me. Many of the recommendations are for quite a variety of species, not all of which are suitable for air layering. plus the fact that very few practitioners condition their trees prior to using the technique. I do not think it is "luck" more likely associated with proper technique, clean tools, proper substrate, effective watering and starting with healthy vigorous trees to begin with.

 

[Carol 83]

Wow, you and a blue pot, from Chuck, no less. I could never have imagined that combination!