Thick trunk nursery mugo - reduction tips

Cosmos

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Beginner here.

I purchased this mugo yesterday. It is from Iseli, and the cultivar is "Sherwood compact".

After reading a lot on mugo pines on this forum, and especially the guide by Vance Wood, I will be repotting the tree in July and starting the reduction process, as nary a ray of sunlight has perced that canopy for years. Where do guys suggest to tackle branch selection? Cut every second branch, third branch, the weakest ones, the strongest ones? So far I've only cleaned the 2-3 half dead branches that were hitting the side of the container, and I have left a stub as recommended.
 

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Vance Wood

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The path towards failure starts with a plan. The first thing you are going to have to do is open the tree up and see what possibilities the tree offers you. I would help you to check out the two videos I posted about mops Mugos.
 

Potawatomi13

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The Mugo Man is Vance Wood however one thing not mentioned is big knot of branches making reverse taper and general mess of this tree. Should ask before buying in some cases. This is common problem with Mugo Pines;).
 

jeanluc83

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This is common problem with Mugo Pines;).

This is common for nursery grown mugos. It is the fact that they are pruned to become green balls in the nursery trade that gives them a bad name. If they were left to grow on their own they would develop similar to other pines and not get the dead spider look when they grow out.

The first thing you are going to have to do is open the tree up and see what possibilities the tree offers you.

I have found a good place to start is to clean out the center first. Get rid of any dead needles or branches. These small mugos can hold a surprising about of crap that has built up. Then start reducing branching to pairs at each fork. From there you can start to get a better idea of where to go forward.

Mugos are a tree that you some times need to live with for a couple of years before you see a path forward.
 
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Cosmos

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however one thing not mentioned is big knot of branches making reverse taper and general mess of this tree. Should ask before buying in some cases. This is common problem with Mugo Pines;).

Thanks for expressing your concerns about my purchase, but I am very happy with it.

This is common for nursery grown mugos. It is the fact that they are pruned to become green balls in the nursery trade that gives them a bad name. If they were left to grow on their own they would develop similar to other pines and not get the dead spider look when they grow out.

I mean, you're right, but even the wild Walter Pall mugos have some crazy whorling going on:

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2016/08/mugo-pine-57.html
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2011/09/three-new-mugo-pines.html
http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2014/07/mugo-pine-56.html

I like the weird of mugo shapes in general.

I have found a good place to start is to clean out the center first. Get rid of any dead needles or branches. These small mugos can hold a surprising about of crap that has built up. Then start reducing branching to pairs at each fork. From there you can start to get a better idea of where to go forward.

Mugos are a tree that you some times need to live with for a couple of years before you see a path forward.

Super, thanks for the tip. I am in absolutely no rush.
 

Vance Wood

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Just remember that "Line" is something that usually does not reveal itself right out of the pot. Sometimes you have to go looking for it and establish that line according to your own opinion of the tree. Most of what I have learned about bonsai design has come from my work with Mugo Pines. I have had people complain that you cannot find a nursery Mugo with a single trunk, a major reason for the early complaints against Mugos---these complaints are correct for the most part. Most of my Mugos did not start out with the ubiquitous single trunk, the single trunk was achieved through strategic elimination of competitors for the honor.
 

Potawatomi13

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This is common for nursery grown mugos. It is the fact that they are pruned to become green balls in the nursery trade that gives them a bad name. If they were left to grow on their own they would develop similar to other pines and not get the dead spider look when they grow out.

Oops:oops:. Corrected to remember.
 

sorce

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I have found a good place to start is to clean out the center first. Get rid of any dead needles or branches. These small mugos can hold a surprising about of crap that has built up. Then start reducing branching to pairs at each fork. From there you can start to get a better idea of where to go forward.

Mugos are a tree that you some times need to live with for a couple of years before you see a path forward.

It totally depends if the "center clean out" goes on for "a Couple years"....
Which isn't clear...

As it reads to a Newb...

He will be cutting back branches to forks this year, after just cleaning out dead stuff from the middle.

"Cutting back branches to EACH fork" sounds like ALL of them.

Before the Line is defined....

Cutting all the branches will only force more interior growth, where, depending on how this is read..will only lead to a bigger clustereff where we are trying to find that line.

Too....for me..."branches cut to forks" is a refinement technique...

At This point...the Only branches that should be cut back to forks are those coming off the still undetermined trunkline, at correct spots and of appropriate size to remain in proportion with the finished tree while growing certain parts....and reducing the knuckle.

This is absolutely impossible...
Not just because of the still undetermined trunkline...
But also because @Cosmos hasn't grown this tree enough to know what branches will stay in proportion with the tree as other parts are grown for future trunkline, and removed to lessen the knuckle.

Further...@cosmos, and probly 70% of people here, surely do not even understand this ....

"At This point...the Only branches that should be cut back to forks are those coming off the still undetermined trunkline, at correct spots and of appropriate size to remain in proportion with the finished tree while growing certain parts....and reducing the knuckle."

This is full of impossible. But nothing is impossible so we make the attempt.
Super attention to detail with our Future Vision Goggles freshly wiped clean with those wipes they were giving away free at Wal-Mart's eye center a while back.

Taking Everything into account.
Including the fact that one can find another Mugo to style into any number of different styles....

There is going to be 1 or 4 branches large enough to most quickly become a next segment of taper..a "new leader"...the LINE.

Of those couple few...
One will have the movement, or direction you want.

Isolate it.... And apply the impossible paragraph. Keeping in mind PROPORTION and SCALE.

Remove first, branches surrounding it...so it has full sun....and you lessen your knuckle.
20% of total foliage.

Then, after fully pondering the impossible...
At the appropriate time and health state....
You can begin to cut to forks and define the tree of the chosen trunk.
About 20% of its foliage...
About 5% more of the entore trees foliage.

So were down 25% total foliage...

And on a safe path...even this year and right now....to get it repotted near June or July's full moon.

By dormancy....if you repotted safe...

You may be able to ditch one more knuckle offending branch.

By then you'll know which is the worst offender.

Sorce
 

Cosmos

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@Vance Wood, should I fertilize in the weeks leading up to the July repot? If so, how intense should I go? Thank you.
 

Vance Wood

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@Vance Wood, should I fertilize in the weeks leading up to the July repot? If so, how intense should I go? Thank you.
How is the tree doing? If it iis growing normally I would not add anything beyond the normal application.
 

Cosmos

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The tree seems very healthy.

The soil contains some slow release fertilizer pellets, and I haven't added anything yet. I might do two rounds of moderate fertilizer until the repot, something like that. Thanks for your help.
 

Cosmos

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Extremely nice weather, so I did the "opening up" of the canopy. Afterwards, it felt like I removed a lot (maybe 40%), but at least half of that was weak, interior or lower growth. That almost horizontal branch is going to go at some point, but not this year. This leaves me with four strong branches to start thinking about the future design.

IMG_20180620_121741.jpgIMG_20180620_122819.jpgIMG_20180620_122928.jpgIMG_20180620_122941.jpgIMG_20180620_122952.jpg

Repot next in a few weeks.
 

Vance Wood

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Very good! Looks like you have a good start on it. Just remember there are two rules from the past you should follow. No bar branches, and no branches at the the inside center of curves on the trunk. Other than that most everything else is fair game.
 

Cosmos

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Repotted my mugo into this big red colander tonight. Everything went fine, no big circling roots to cut. No visible mycorrhiza either. The nursery soil was a mix of bark chips and compost, it looks like.

Hopefully it likes my soil mixture (about 40% baked clay, 40% DE and 20% perlite).
 

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Vance Wood

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How did you reduce the size of the original root ball?
Questions about your soil mix? What do you define as baked clay? Do you have a product name? You followed everything else but departed from my soil mix. I'm not saying that that is the reason for the failure, just trying to figure things out---you and I. Up to this point what has been the source of your bonsai knowledge?
 

Cosmos

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I cut the rootball with a saw (50%) and made the sides fuzzy.

The baked clay is sold as Oil-Dri here, I think it’s very similar to your Turface (which we don’t get). It’s produced by EP Minerals. The DE is exactly the same product as the NAPA 822 you get in the US.

I’m a beginner, so it’s been books, this forum and other websites (Mirai, etc.). I plan on taking courses with the local bonsai club in the upcoming months.
 

Paulpash

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See how you go with Perlite. For me the damn stuff had a habit of floating out of the pot if I wasn't careful with the sprayer. Pumice was a more stable alternative for me. Good luck with the Mugo.
 

just.wing.it

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I hope this tree likes the new substrate.

Vance, do you think this kind of repotting can lead to problems with water not penetrating the core of the rootball?
 

Cosmos

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This tree is actually dying guys (see here), and we’re trying to figure out why.

See how you go with Perlite. For me the damn stuff had a habit of floating out of the pot if I wasn't careful with the sprayer. Pumice was a more stable alternative for me. Good luck with the Mugo.

I’m thinking no perlite from now on, I don’t see the benefit of the stuff but I just happened to have two big bags when I sifted my soil in the spring.

I hope this tree likes the new substrate.

Vance, do you think this kind of repotting can lead to problems with water not penetrating the core of the rootball?

Once the tree is put to rest, I’ll do an autopsy and look at the roots for sure.
 
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