Thickening trunk: Planting in ground VS. PLanting in a REALLY huge pot?????

[Cypress]

OK, so I hear constantly that the only way to fatten up a trunk is to plant trees right into the ground... BUT In my own ponderings I was thinking... Wouldn't planting a tree in a VERY large pot have the same effect???

I'm assuming planting it in the ground gives alot of space for the root mass to develop which in turn allows the trunk to grow.

If given a large amount of space in a very large pot, wouldn't this accomplish the same goal?

This is just something that popped into my head. Tell me if I'm right or if I'm wrong and why! Would love to hear everyone's opinions.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I'd still say the ground is better. The ground doesn't have walls, whereas a pot, no matter the size, does have walls. The roots would eventually hit those walls, but they can run free in the ground. Watering would also be more difficult in the large pot with all that soil, there would be pockets of dry and wet soil all around.

 

[Poink88]

You can create same effect as planting in ground and even do better...but would it be practical? I would bet no.

 

[iant]

This is a well known article on the subject:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/earthpot.htm

I suppose a really large pot would be similar if it were surrounded on all sides (other than the top) by ground (to keep temp and moisture in equilibrium) and if it were filled with same soil as ground and not overwatered and had sides and bottom that roots and water could go through...
Ian

 

[Jason_mazzy]

Martin Sweeney does a great job of developing trees in pots. Hopefully he chimes in here (he did a lecture at our last meeting on this subject).

 

[iant]

My best growth has been graded increase in pot size until it fits in an Anderson flat then once roots fill that adding an escape flat below it that has about 2-3 in of something coarse like lava or perlite or pumice. I have a maple that I let escape into a 2nd flat last year and this spring I put a 3rd flat under the 2nd and its growing very well.
The main risk with a pot that's too large is excess watering.
Ian

 

[GrimLore]

This is a "can of worms" thread but here goes... For the most part ground will be better.

BUT -

It depends on what you are looking to accomplish. A good example is a Plum tree 8 foot tall at time of purchase(end of season Home Depot train wreck @ 8.99 usd). We hacked it back down to 3 foot and put it in a 1 foot square planter for two years while it developed an extremely heavy root system and reduced it to 30 inches. Start of season 3 we took it out and I sawed the root system down to 10 1/2"x8"x3" so it would fit in a 11"x8 1/2"x3" clay pot. The remaining room was filled in with Traction grit and sand. It is now 48" tall and will be reduced again next Spring. So in that situation I wanted to very good control over the roots for future work.

Also on some species like Bald Cypress I dug a trench and put in 8 plants. I also planted 8 more in the same soil at the same depth. They all grew the same until Sandy pretty much destroyed all but a couple. In ground requires some protection from voles and critters as well so I THINK the choice determined by the situation more so then what works best overall.

Large pots can also be a bear to move so if you do try it out make sure you are using as light of a planting mix as you can for weight reduction. I have an orchard and an additional 120 or so mature trees on the property but in addition we have several trees in large pots, many saplings, and several seedlings which do well given proper attention.

They all land up in pots eventually which brings to mind Dario's Collection

 

[Cypress]

My best growth has been graded increase in pot size until it fits in an Anderson flat then once roots fill that adding an escape flat below it that has about 2-3 in of something coarse like lava or perlite or pumice. I have a maple that I let escape into a 2nd flat last year and this spring I put a 3rd flat under the 2nd and its growing very well.
The main risk with a pot that's too large is excess watering.
Ian

Wow! Thanks for all of the feedback. I guess part of my concern is overwinter my trees, but at the same time needing to fatten up trunks. Most of mine are small saplings since I'm just staring out. And My parents house does have alot of land that I could plant them at so it wouldn't be a problem for me to do so. (i live in a rather small apartment but have my trees in pots outside next to the porch.) BUT Syracuse (upstate NY) winters are pretty harsh... I'm talking feet upon feet of snow and I wouldn't want to doom any of my 'babies'. Of course I will do my research on each species cold hardiness etc. But I've also hear of sticking small trees in refrigerators to induce dormancy? Haha, sounds kind of ridiculous but, hey... Also I could construct a small shack, so the plants the trees would go through the winter without getting buried and frozen.

But one BIG question... What exactly is an anderson flat??? Some pot type???

Thanks so much y'all!

 

[GrimLore]

Wow! Thanks for all of the feedback. I guess part of my concern is overwinter my trees, but at the same time needing to fatten up trunks. Most of mine are small saplings since I'm just staring out. And My parents house does have alot of land that I could plant them at so it wouldn't be a problem for me to do so. (i live in a rather small apartment but have my trees in pots outside next to the porch.) BUT Syracuse (upstate NY) winters are pretty harsh... I'm talking feet upon feet of snow and I wouldn't want to doom any of my 'babies'. Of course I will do my research on each species cold hardiness etc. But I've also hear of sticking small trees in refrigerators to induce dormancy? Haha, sounds kind of ridiculous but, hey... Also I could construct a small shack, so the plants the trees would go through the winter without getting buried and frozen.

But one BIG question... What exactly is an anderson flat??? Some pot type???

Thanks so much y'all!

First Check this link for the Anderson flats http://www.andersonpots.com/products.html

I am very familiar with where you live and have driven through there countless times. PM me a phone number and proper time to call. I can explain in a few minutes some rather easy and inexpensive ways to winter those lil guys It would take far longer to detail it out and I don't even know what species you are dealing with honest. My LD charges are free so no biggy.

 

[Poink88]

What exactly is an anderson flat??? Some pot type???

Check AFLAT5 here http://www.stuewe.com/products/anderson.php

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Check AFLAT5 here http://www.stuewe.com/products/anderson.php

Yup I ordered myself 2 of those.

 

[Cypress]

OHHH! Yes I'm slightly familiar with this type of pot. I have never seen the "flats" but I mail ordered two bald cypress saplings (which are doing quite lovely at the moment) and they arrived is the taller type pot with the cross bottom about 8" tall pots.

So correct me if I'm wrong but the anderson flats and the their vertical equivalent are designed to be able to plant the pots/containers directly into the ground, and gives the tree the freedom to expand it's roots through the openings. Allowing the trunk to do it's thing and fatten up, but when it comes time to pull them out of the ground it makes it much easier to do so???

Thanks again, I'm relatively new to the forum and have received so much good information from you folks...

And Grimlore, thanks so much for offering to give me a ring to walk me through some of this. We'll definitely arrange a time to do so. I'll have to write out a list of my current stock beforehand.

 

[Cypress]

OH, And is an anderson flat just designed to be a container for numerous Anderson bands? Or is it used as a standalone plant container?

Thanks!

 

[Anthony]

Cypress,

if you get a chance test this.

Here is a large plant pot saucer, it is UV resistant. A diameter 18 ", depth of 4 inches and can be used to grow the roots radially, while thickening the trunk. Plant is 33" tall.
I can work on the roots and get trunk thickening at the same size and the fear of wet soil is zero.
Next stage is to transfer to an even bigger saucer.

The UV resistance means I have these saucers for life.
Good Evening.
Anthony.

* I am also planning to bore multiple holes into one of these pots to see it will force the roots to become more efficient, as seen in an Air-pot - http://www.airpotgarden.com/
The second image is an air-pot being tested.

 

[Stan Kengai]

If you're looking for flat out growth, the absolute best thing you can use is a well prepared raised bed. I have a 5' by 3' bed I made out of 2"x6" boards, filled with 4 inches of "soil" with weed fabric tacked to the bottom, which sits directly on the ground. There is no soil in the bed but rather a mixture of several different types of compost (manure, mushroom, forest product, whatever I could find) with about 15-20% used bonsai substrate and fines.

In a bed like this, you have the advantages of growing in the ground (drainage, root temperature moderation), and you don't have some of the disadvantages (lag time or tap-root development) that you do in the ground. Root work is easy. I can literally pull plants out of the bed with my hands. Rootballs stay more compact and consistent than in the ground, and they're only 4" deep in my case. I love my growing bed so much, I'm building another one for next spring.

Word of caution: I do not get ground freezing very often. In climates that do, a bed like this would surely freeze very fast.

 

[Cypress]

If you're looking for flat out growth, the absolute best thing you can use is a well prepared raised bed. I have a 5' by 3' bed I made out of 2"x6" boards, filled with 4 inches of "soil" with weed fabric tacked to the bottom, which sits directly on the ground. There is no soil in the bed but rather a mixture of several different types of compost (manure, mushroom, forest product, whatever I could find) with about 15-20% used bonsai substrate and fines.

In a bed like this, you have the advantages of growing in the ground (drainage, root temperature moderation), and you don't have some of the disadvantages (lag time or tap-root development) that you do in the ground. Root work is easy. I can literally pull plants out of the bed with my hands. Rootballs stay more compact and consistent than in the ground, and they're only 4" deep in my case. I love my growing bed so much, I'm building another one for next spring.

Word of caution: I do not get ground freezing very often. In climates that do, a bed like this would surely freeze very fast.

Anthony and Stan, thanks for your input.

-Stan I'm leaning towards something like what you've described. Is the weed fabric in your bed underneath the 4 inches of soil/growing medium? At least thats how I understood it.

-Now by doing that you're encouraging lateral root growth? (which the main purpose would be to develop nebari I assume) instead of downward/tap root growth?

It does get quite cold and quite snowy in upstate New York, but I think I could adapt your method to be an in-ground growing bed level with the ground maybe a bit deeper.. 5" or 6". But still with a layer of weed fabric?

This would be beneficial in another way, as the area I have available to plant my trees tends to have a high clay content and I would be able to have more control over soil type and drainage.

Thoughts?

 

[Beng]

If you do that you could place pipe heating coils at the bottom of the bed which would keep the roots about 1-5 degrees above freezing all winter.

 

[Cypress]

Don't get me wrong... it snow alot here, but if roots are a few inches under the soil they'll be fine. I don't live in the arctic circle... and heating coils sounds way over the top.

 

[JudyB]

Don't get me wrong... it snow alot here, but if roots are a few inches under the soil they'll be fine. I don't live in the arctic circle... and heating coils sounds way over the top.

Depends on what specie you are protecting... And what kind of work you've done to the tree during the growing season.

 

[Cypress]

Thanks judy! Hahah, I've accumulated a variety of species this summer, so I'll have to do some research into each specific one.

I know I have a tendency to ask about 5 questions in one post but I have one other simple question... Is there any substantial benefit to planting a tree directly into the ground in late summer before winter rolls around? In terms of more vigorous growth in the spring or something?

The other option being just plopping the plant container into the ground so the tree would just be protected from freeze while in dormancy...