Thinking about a Mixed Forest on the Large Slab...

[johng]

I would like to plant this very convex stone (about 4'x2') with a mixed forest. I have a group of tall thin shimpaku airlayers that I have trained to look like tall southern Pine trees and a bunch of winged elms that I would like to use to represent a hardwood forest all around pines...

What do you think?

John

 

[dkraft81]

Sounds like an interesting project, but then again I'm all for the non traditional.

 

[GrimLore]

There are a few places in New York that are "hand" logged by permit. They all seem to have the Evergreens on the highest locations and the hardwoods growing on the slopes and low lying areas. Most have a small stream in the lowest parts. Very nice for a walk about and provides nice hunting as well.

Grimmy

 

[Poink88]

It may work but question to you is....what about growth rate and maintenance?

Your elm will out grow your juni fast and you will have to constantly work on them to keep it presentable...and proportionate.

May be the reason not to do it. Your call.

 

[johng]

It may work but question to you is....what about growth rate and maintenance?

Your elm will out grow your juni fast and you will have to constantly work on them to keep it presentable...and proportionate.

May be the reason not to do it. Your call.

I will have to do that even if the junipers aren't there...right? It is possible that the elm roots could out compete the junipers causing the trees to weaken over time...that is certainly a possibility.

 

[coh]

Sounds like you're not planning to mix the species but rather plant the junipers in the center and the elms around them, right? If so, can you build a barrier that keeps the roots systems somewhat separate...I haven't done any planting on slabs or rocks so I don't know how feasible that would be.

I like the idea, though. A well done mixed forest can be really beautiful.

Chris

 

[Poink88]

I will have to do that even if the junipers aren't there...right? It is possible that the elm roots could out compete the junipers causing the trees to weaken over time...that is certainly a possibility.

Yes but for the scene to work as you described...in my mind the junis have to tower over the elms. It will be true at first but will be reversed in just a few months...covering your juni unless they are on an elevated mountain type setting. And as I said, the proportions will be off. It is one thing if they are all elms and have all grown...another to dwarf what is supposed to be bigger taller trees. Again, doable, just more work in my mind.

The roots is another issue I did not even consider.

How about using much slower growing dwarf elm...or other slow broad leaf like Kingsville boxwood?

 

[johng]

Sounds like you're not planning to mix the species but rather plant the junipers in the center and the elms around them, right? If so, can you build a barrier that keeps the roots systems somewhat separate...I haven't done any planting on slabs or rocks so I don't know how feasible that would be.

I like the idea, though. A well done mixed forest can be really beautiful.

Chris

I do plan to mix the planting...the trees will be separated by their placement but they will all have their roots in the same muck and soil. I think separating their roots would not give the end effect that I am shooting for...

 

[fourteener]

This is the main reason you don't see mixed plantings. The potential for one root system to overpower the other root system is quite high. If you could come up with trees that are comparable in their root aggression, you could have a chance.

I have a large cedar in my yard. Nothing and I mean nothing competes with it for root space. I've resigned myself to have a rock garden under there. Fight Mother Nature all you want, tell her how unconventional you are...

I would love to combine larch and pine forest... It would never work.

Try two rock plantings and display them in a larger tray that unifies the scene(just throwing out an idea).

 

[johng]

Yes but for the scene to work as you described...in my mind the junis have to tower over the elms. It will be true at first but will be reversed in just a few months...covering your juni unless they are on an elevated mountain type setting. And as I said, the proportions will be off. It is one thing if they are all elms and have all grown...another to dwarf what is supposed to be bigger taller trees. Again, doable, just more work in my mind.

The roots is another issue I did not even consider.

How about using much slower growing dwarf elm...or other slow broad leaf like Kingsville boxwood?

I am not sure you are understanding...This will not be something I am developing perse...letting things grow out long and pruning back...that would totally ruin the perspective of the forest with or without the junipers. Although the trees I am using will still benefit from more ramification if you allowed them to grow out too much (like it seems you are suggesting) it would totally mess up the perspective for each tree. These trees will be treated more like a finished tree...allowed only to growout just a little before they are trimmed back. This way you do not ruin the taper of the branches. If you don't have any forests/group plantings already I can see why this may seem foreign to you.

So, to answer your questions...there will be no more maintenance with the junipers than there would already be with the elms...once you do a group planting the size, taper, and perspective of each tree must be maintained...otherwise the planting will never look they way you hope it will.

I hope that makes sense.

John

 

[GrimLore]

I do plan to mix the planting...the trees will be separated by their placement but they will all have their roots in the same muck and soil. I think separating their roots would not give the end effect that I am shooting for...

When you first presented the thought I immediately thought of the way I see that in nature along with the good and bad as nature so often offers. Will there be problems over the years - yes. Will it be natural - yes. Almost sounds like John, Walter, Bill, and Bob sat around with a few beers for this one It is a great idea and I cannot stress that enough...

Grimmy

 

[johng]

This is the main reason you don't see mixed plantings. The potential for one root system to overpower the other root system is quite high. If you could come up with trees that are comparable in their root aggression, you could have a chance.

I have a large cedar in my yard. Nothing and I mean nothing competes with it for root space. I've resigned myself to have a rock garden under there. Fight Mother Nature all you want, tell her how unconventional you are...

I would love to combine larch and pine forest... It would never work.

Try two rock plantings and display them in a larger tray that unifies the scene(just throwing out an idea).

That is an excellent suggestion and one that I have done several times in the past to avoid mixing... Just as an FYI...I can tell you from experience that Water Elms (not an elm) cannot be done in a mixed planting with Bald Cypress...After a couple of years the BC just weaken and die if planted together.

I am going to try this one mixed...time will tell and most likely the elm roots will be an issue but I am willing to give it a shot.

John

 

[fourteener]

I am not sure you are understanding...This will not be something I am developing perse...letting things grow out long and pruning back...that would totally ruin the perspective of the forest with or without the junipers. Although the trees I am using will still benefit from more ramification if you allowed them to grow out too much (like it seems you are suggesting) it would totally mess up the perspective for each tree. These trees will be treated more like a finished tree...allowed only to growout just a little before they are trimmed back. This way you do not ruin the taper of the branches. If you don't have any forests/group plantings already I can see why this may seem foreign to you.

So, to answer your questions...there will be no more maintenance with the junipers than there would already be with the elms...once you do a group planting the size, taper, and perspective of each tree must be maintained...otherwise the planting will never look they way you hope it will.

I hope that makes sense.


John

I'm looking forward to seeing if the they grow evenly. If not you will have to overly manicure one to protect the other. Root systems are not equal. My tamaracks choked out my pine in two years. Aggression meets passive...aggression won!

 

[fourteener]

That is an excellent suggestion and one that I have done several times in the past to avoid mixing... Just as an FYI...I can tell you from experience that Water Elms (not an elm) cannot be done in a mixed planting with Bald Cypress...After a couple of years the BC just weaken and die if planted together.

I am going to try this one mixed...time will tell and most likely the elm roots will be an issue but I am willing to give it a shot.

John

Experiments can lead to something good. Just ask a few inventors!! It is an interesting thought to consider if there are species that can exist together. There have to be a few combos out there.

 

[johng]

I'm looking forward to seeing if the they grow evenly. If not you will have to overly manicure one to protect the other. Root systems are not equal. My tamaracks choked out my pine in two years. Aggression meets passive...aggression won!

I know already they will not grow evenly...we are talking about the weed tree of the south...winged elm...its going to take me staying very much on top of this one for it to be successful..

I really don't think it is going to be any different than what I already do to maintain other slab plantings such as this one...

 

[GrimLore]

My thought on the slab is that the junipers would be at the highest point of the planting allowing the water to flow down to the elms. I "think" in that situation the elms would have what they want and be less prone to try to root upward in the setting.

Grimmy

 

[johng]

My thought on the slab is that the junipers would be at the highest point of the planting allowing the water to flow down to the elms. I "think" in that situation the elms would have what they want and be less prone to try to root upward in the setting.

Grimmy

That is exactly what I have planned!
J

 

[GrimLore]

That is exactly what I have planned!
J

There is another plus side in that you can drape the roots of the elms outward and to the lowest point where more of the water will pile up, sounds like a "pro" plan to me my friend

Grimmy

 

[jkd2572]

Could you build an under soil root barrier to solve all of these root problems? Not saying it could be done, but an idea.

 

[Poink88]

I am not sure you are understanding...This will not be something I am developing perse...letting things grow out long and pruning back...that would totally ruin the perspective of the forest with or without the junipers. Although the trees I am using will still benefit from more ramification if you allowed them to grow out too much (like it seems you are suggesting) it would totally mess up the perspective for each tree. These trees will be treated more like a finished tree...allowed only to growout just a little before they are trimmed back. This way you do not ruin the taper of the branches. If you don't have any forests/group plantings already I can see why this may seem foreign to you.

So, to answer your questions...there will be no more maintenance with the junipers than there would already be with the elms...once you do a group planting the size, taper, and perspective of each tree must be maintained...otherwise the planting will never look they way you hope it will.

I hope that makes sense.

John

I think you are the one who missed my point. All I am saying is it will be a lot of work but doable if you are willing to put time in maintenance. But sounds like you factored it in so go ahead.

IF NOT...then the problems I described will happen. I did not say you are developing the trees there. The recommendation to use dwarf variety is to balance growth rate and reduce maintenance.

It may work but question to you is....what about growth rate and maintenance?

Your elm will out grow your juni fast and you will have to constantly work on them to keep it presentable...and proportionate.

May be the reason not to do it. Your call.

Yes but for the scene to work as you described...in my mind the junis have to tower over the elms. It will be true at first but will be reversed in just a few months...covering your juni unless they are on an elevated mountain type setting. And as I said, the proportions will be off. It is one thing if they are all elms and have all grown...another to dwarf what is supposed to be bigger taller trees. Again, doable, just more work in my mind.

The roots is another issue I did not even consider.

How about using much slower growing dwarf elm...or other slow broad leaf like Kingsville boxwood?