This Is Getting Old

Messages
1,773
Reaction score
12
Location
Ottawa, KS
USDA Zone
6
I am sick and tired of a couple of folks trying to stir up some kind of controversy by misrepresenting my views and my posts on the subject of nursery stock v. prebonsai v. yamadori. I have been very clear over the last year, far clearer than others in my beliefs. Yet every post seems met with a distortion of my words and intent, setting up some kind of straw man.

My view is and always has been, that an enthusiast should buy the best stock they can afford and can handle. Sometimes that may be nursery stock. Sometimes it may be prebonsai. Sometimes it may be collected trees. And sometimes it may be a "finished" tree.

What are the converse arguments? An enthusiast holds themselves back by practicing only on nursery stock regardless of the cost. Refining techniques can only be learned on more advanced material, which may take years to produce from nursery stock, or decades from young seedlings. An enthusiast who obtains a tree far beyond their ability is likely to kill that tree, or neglect it, and if it is a very fine tree, it's a shame and a loss to the bonsai world.

Does anyone have a problem with anything I have said so far? Have I contradicted anything I have said in the past? Have I changed my position at all?

I have said and maintain today that being so proud of how little you would spend on tree material is no virtue. For someone with some expertise to eschew advanced material is to limit themselves. For someone who does not even recognize how little they really know to allow great material to languish is a shame. Clear enough?

There is no contradiction, boys. Go admire each other some more.
 

bonsai barry

Omono
Messages
1,374
Reaction score
37
Location
Cental Coast of California
USDA Zone
9
There seems to be a lot of dicussion about price. It is, of course a personal matter based on the purchasers' level of income and level of commitment. I don't have difficulty sharing the price I paid if it helps others make an informed decision about a purchase they are considering.

A short story:
For our 25th wedding anniversary, my wife bought me a very nice bonsai. It was much nicer than anything else I have. Within a eighteen months it died. I felt badly, thinking about the symbolism of the death of an anniversary gift. It didn't bother my wife, who said that she was pleased that I had eighteen months of enjoyment and obviously had appreciated more than any other gift she had given me, and she took enjoyment in that!

The bonsai may be gone, but the wife remains!
 
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
12
Location
Ottawa, KS
USDA Zone
6
This is not about price. It has nothing to do with price. Price never entered into this discussion. It's about two people trying whatever they can to discredit me or make themselves look better at my expense.
 

Smoke

Ignore-Amus
Messages
11,563
Reaction score
19,735
Location
Fresno, CA
USDA Zone
9
Don't worry about it Chris. It's a body of work and a gallery of finished artistic trees that one can post and be proud of. It matters not how you get there, just that you get there. Forget about those that wish to undermine your efforts and your place in bonsai.

Working with Boon could be considered a very enveible position as well as also having the access to stock not many people in the USA will ever see. Envy and jealousy makes people do things they might not otherwise do.

Cheers, Al
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,600
Reaction score
15,704
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
This is not about price. It has nothing to do with price. Price never entered into this discussion. It's about two people trying whatever they can to discredit me or make themselves look better at my expense.
No one is trying to discredit you Chris.
 

anttal63

Mame
Messages
187
Reaction score
5
Location
melbourne victoria australia
USDA Zone
8-9
chris you worry too much. the most important thing is yourself to know who you are. life will always have knockers one way or another. i find you to be one of the guys with merit and credit. relax man.
 

BonsaiWes

Mame
Messages
128
Reaction score
1
USDA Zone
7
Chris,

What does the moon care if the dogs bark at it? You can keep doing and teaching bonsai while the talkers are busy working their mouths.
 

Bonsai Nut

Nuttier than your average Nut
Messages
9,022
Reaction score
16,277
Location
Charlotte area, North Carolina
USDA Zone
7B
Yet every post seems met with a distortion of my words and intent, setting up some kind of straw man.
Chris, I would hope that you would let your own words speak for themselves. While one group may decide to misinterpret your intent, others will understand. Likewise, if people criticize your posts, take the value of their arguments into consideration. If they are without value, don't respond.

90% of the contention on this board come from people arguing with each other about nothing. They try to pick apart grammar, or somantics, while clearly understanding someone's intent. I have a thick skin :) I tend to just float by those posts :) People learn over time that if I respond I feel that their post has VALUE versus the opposite :)
 
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
15
Location
Michigan, USA
USDA Zone
5
Don't worry about it Chris. It's a body of work and a gallery of finished artistic trees that one can post and be proud of. It matters not how you get there, just that you get there. Forget about those that wish to undermine your efforts and your place in bonsai
True, it is what you accomplish that matters, everthing else is just smoke and mirrors. Someday even those of us posting in this thread may have world class quality trees, or not.

As far as those that wish to undermine your efforts and your place in bonsai, get used to it, they never go away, sadly they are a part of the on-line community.



Will
 

AndyWilson

Mame
Messages
106
Reaction score
7
Location
South Africa
Yeah Bnut, it is sad when people who have so much to offer the community get pulled into arguments about nothing, so much talent, if only all of that energy that usually goes into argument were focused into bonsai...
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,600
Reaction score
15,704
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
I suppose I have to put in my two cents worth here because of some things that have been said. Andy: Do you really think that choices of material and recommendations of the same is nothing more than an useless argument? To tell you the truth a majority of subjects covered would not interest me at all if it were not for my interest in the growth of bonsai for the future. You are making the assertion that those of us who engage in discussions like this don't do bonsai, we just talk about bonsai. I would challenge you to offer up your proof. You see words have meaning, especially on an Internet forum where the majority of the information shared is words. The argument has been made that we argue about semantics but that is not the case, we are discussing what is meant by the actions and intents behind the real words that are used. If you don't mean X or Y then don't say X or Y. If you really didn't mean what X or Y in actuality said then say so and move on, but don't hum and haw around the subject as though it really didn't take place.
 
Last edited:

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,600
Reaction score
15,704
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Don't worry about it Chris. It's a body of work and a gallery of finished artistic trees that one can post and be proud of. It matters not how you get there, just that you get there. Forget about those that wish to undermine your efforts and your place in bonsai.

Working with Boon could be considered a very enveible position as well as also having the access to stock not many people in the USA will ever see. Envy and jealousy makes people do things they might not otherwise do.

Cheers, Al
That amazes me Al, you are basically saying that if you, me, or the man in the Moon have anything substantive to say to Chris, that is contrary to what he has said, we are jealous of his association with Boon. Isn't that kind of painting with a broad brush and assigning motive and thought that you cannot possibly know? What kind of favor does that do Chris? What if Chris was and is wrong?
 
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
15
Location
Michigan, USA
USDA Zone
5
Vance and I both had the extreme pleasure of meeting recently with a student of Boon's. I can not speak for Vance, but I was impressed with this particular student, like another student of Boon's that I consider my friend, Carl Bergstrom, this student was knowledgeable and his overall attitude and humility earned Boon great respect and admiration on my part.

If a teacher is truly judged by his students, these two individuals should make Boon proud. Jealousy? hardly, if I wanted to learn from Boon I would take an intensive now and then, like many of his students.

In the end, not every student is a great one, not every student has the talent to put to use what they learn, and not every student does their teacher as proud as these two individuals have, at least in my eyes.
 

AndyWilson

Mame
Messages
106
Reaction score
7
Location
South Africa
Nope Vance, thats not what i meant. I just mean its sad to see so much space taking up arguing semantics(entirely unrelated to bonsai). i think everyone has the potential to offer something to a forum, some far more then others admittedly. The past few months have produced some threads that start off about trees, and then go off for page after page of personal attack, i prefer to read about trees rather then verbal jousting (although some does admittedly lead to good information). To much personal argument, not enough discussion is what i meant.

Btw i have found recent discussions about stock interesting, for reasons i chatted about in that particular thread.

(edit i know that some argument can lead to good info, most of it here doesnt though. Some of recent threads have degenerated long after any decent information came to light and headed back down the road of personal attack.)
 
Last edited:

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,600
Reaction score
15,704
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
Vance and I both had the extreme pleasure of meeting recently with a student of Boon's. I can not speak for Vance, but I was impressed with this particular student, like another student of Boon's that I consider my friend, Carl Bergstrom, this student was knowledgeable and his overall attitude and humility earned Boon great respect and admiration on my part.

If a teacher is truly judged by his students, these two individuals should make Boon proud. Jealousy? hardly, if I wanted to learn from Boon I would take an intensive now and then, like many of his students.

In the end, not every student is a great one, not every student has the talent to put to use what they learn, and not every student does their teacher as proud as these two individuals have, at least in my eyes.
I was impressed with him as well; a couple of cups of Italian coffee and a shot of espresso followed by a lot of discussion and I my eyes were opened to a particular issue I have suspected for some time.
 
Messages
2,776
Reaction score
15
Location
Michigan, USA
USDA Zone
5
The expresso was good,you guys handled the Italian Coffee House real well, even though the language was mostly Italian, lol. I was glad to see some suspisions confirmed as well Vance. Thanks for coming.

Oh and Happy Birthday. ;)

Will
 
Messages
1,773
Reaction score
12
Location
Ottawa, KS
USDA Zone
6
I was impressed with him as well; a couple of cups of Italian coffee and a shot of espresso followed by a lot of discussion and I my eyes were opened to a particular issue I have suspected for some time.
The expresso was good,you guys handled the Italian Coffee House real well, even though the language was mostly Italian, lol. I was glad to see some suspisions confirmed as well Vance. Thanks for coming.

Oh and Happy Birthday. ;)

Will
Thanks for the wish, Will! Okay, I said I wasn't going to ask, but you guys did it. My curiosity is peaked. What suspicions?
 

Vance Wood

Lord Mugo
Messages
13,600
Reaction score
15,704
Location
Michigan
USDA Zone
5-6
About Karate schools and Bonsai Schools.
 

BonsaiWes

Mame
Messages
128
Reaction score
1
USDA Zone
7
About Karate schools and Bonsai Schools.

Ohh man, you have to let this cat out of the bag. Omit names as you see fit as I for one hate with passion these moderen McDojos'!
 
Top Bottom