This Procumbens Has Me Stumped!

[MaverickLancer]

I was at home depot (big box hardware and garden) the other day and chanced upon their discount section. I had just read Walter Pall's thread about the big box challenge and it got me thinking about practicing. I looked around and saw a lone 3 gallon procumbens at a ridiculous price. The folliage was so thick and it was potted so deep that i didnt havea good idea of branch structure or trunk. For the price, I decided to go for it as my first conifer project.

Well, today I finally had time to clean it up a bit and see what I had. Unfortunately, my juniper looked a lot more like a gangly starfish that impaled itself on a stump than a tree.



There are five main branches that all come from the same node. They grow out and downwards. Im thinking of wiring one of the branches up in a semi spiral/curve to create and apex, but since they all grow downwards a little, the angle ends up awkward and incredibly unnatural. Im trying to avoid cascades.

One thought is to try M. Frary's idea of staking it and having everything grow up, but that awkward branch angle has me stumped.

Any ideas on direction are much appreciated.

 

[Eric Group]

I think what Walter and Stacey were getting at with their suggestions was that it is more about the journey and less about the end result when working on this type of material- get some practice, wire it out and see HOW to bend the branches, find out how much they can take, see what the end result looks like before judging it and most of all don't sweat it too much if your first try turns out to be garbage- it normally IS! By the time you wire 50 or 100 trees, you should get the hang of it!

Part of the journey is also buying a bunch of crappy material to learn what makes it crappy... So step one is accomplished! Now get to polishing that turd, and see what it looks like, then go back and buy 5-10 more turds, polish them up... Eventually you might wind up with a diamond!

Think about those twisted up Shimpaku that are in style right now it seems.. They have branches/ trunks whose first turn is downward, then it curls back up like a tight little pig's tail shape... Go for something like that with a branch, wire another one more vertically, see which one you like best.. See which one... BREAKS... Wire all five differently if you want, pick your favorite, and Jin the rest, or re- wire some to go along with the one you like best... Have some fun with it!

 

[0soyoung]

An idea for your consideration if you are thinking about (right out of the box store) styling challenges. Mike's got a good idea, but it is about growing out material and not so much about styling, IMHO.

 

[A Random User]

Yeah... the whole point of the discussion and the idea of practicing, is to actually practice.
Growing material out only makes you a gardener. Not a bonsai artist.
If you make a nice tree out of it, cool... but, what one could learn from the experience is why you are doing it.

So... right off the bat, you have determined that you have to many branches coming form the same point.
And that this is wrong... why is it wrong? Why would one not want to have this many branches coming from the same spot?
Lastly... how many branches coming off the same spot could one possibly get away with and use within the design? This is not
meant to insult... but rather to help you on your way with how to move forward with your tree.

 

[M. Frary]

The ones I stake upright are very young and flexible. Like Sawgrass says that is only growing a tree. Not styling it. The styling comes later for those.
Since this is not so flexible you must try to rack your brain to try to come up with a tree like image with what you are given.
The first thing when working a tree. And a lot of people don't realize this. Start working from the outside in. You want to leave material close to the trunk. You got a bald spot but things will grow back there once you start cutting the ends off of branches.
You could go 3 ways from here.
1. You just give up because it is a hard thing to do to get a tree image you want out of the piece of material.
2. You throw some wire on it and make a couple of cuts and call it a bonsai like a lot of people do.
3. Sit down and look and study this thing and come up with a plan. Make a drawing. One of what you have and one of what you think you can make of it. Figure out how to get it there and implement the techniques to get it there.
If you choose number 3 it won't get you instant gratification. It may not get you a showstopper. Hell the tree may not even live but you gain something from number 3 that you will not get from the first 2 choices. Knowledge.
Knowledge such as wiring, bending,figuring out the best image in a tree. And what to look for in material to begin with.
Whichever thing you choose to do is your choice after all.

 

[M. Frary]

I just looked and see Sawgrass submitted a tutorial on bending and channeling. Perfect timing! Check that out and see if you are still stumped.

 

[sorce]

Maverick,

What kind of wire?

I wooood. ........

Identify the best branch for a trunk continuation, interior buds, health, branches, and leave that one alone for now.

Wire the rest for practice, keep it alive for a year, then cut that shit off and work the good trunk.

I admire your ambition.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Maverick,

First of all, think about how to "look" at trees. Your photos are all from the top down.

We look at bonsai from the side. The trunk is THE most important part of the tree. The branches are not. Branches, we can replace. The TRUNK IS THE TREE.

So... First thing to do is pull the rootball out of the nursery can. Set the root ball up on a table, or work surface so that you can see the trunk line. Dig down with your fingers around the base of the trunk to find where the surface roots are.

You will find that they are probably buried a couple inches down below the current soul level. They go that with landscape material.

Now, using sharp scissors, cut away the top surface of the rootball to get the soil level at the level where the roots begin off the trunk.

Don't worry, the tree will never miss them.

Now your tree has more trunk. Look at it from the side(s) and turn around until you find which side is the most interesting. Once you do, stick a chopstick in the rootball there so you can remember it. You may find the trunk is more interesting if you tilt the tree one way or the other. That's fine? Use a wood block to hold it the angle you want. Set the chopstick in the front so that its vertical. That will help you remember the angle.

Some things to keep in mind when selecting the front:

Interesting curves.
The nebari should be the widest.
The trunk should lean forward a bit towards the viewer.

Good luck, and show some "in progress " pictures!

 

[Adair M]

Once you have cut the top of the rootball down to the level of the nebari, and once you have decided on the new planting angle, you have a decision to make:

Return it to its old nursery can? Or replant it at the new angle?

If the new planting angle is not a radical change, you can probably replant it at the new angle. You'll have to cut the bottom of the rootball flat at the new angle.

And then carve a bit on the sides of the rootball so that it will fit in th old container. This should be minor cuts at this time of the year.

It helps to shorten the nursery can, too.

Be sure when you return the tree to the can to have all the voids filled with soil.

If it's a major angle change, wait until next spring to repot at the new angle as you will be making more radical reductions to the root system.

 

[A Random User]

I agree with Adair here. This is good practice, especially when working with conifers as well as yamadori. Where often one will not be able to drastically change the nebari or roots. Like one might be able to do with deciduous trees. In these cases you will need to work for the most part with what is there. So, you would want to examine the base of the trunk and the roots coming off to try and find the most appealing angle and put this front and center.

Where I would personally differ would be that often one will find on junipers, and especially young junipers is that there is not much there to find that is worth showing off, due to the fact that they are younger and have not yet established any roots of any real size.

This does not mean one should not do this. They should, and it is the first step on the path forward towards bringing out the tree within the material. Figuring out what are the best features that the tree has and designing the tree around these to show off these features.

The only other area I would differ from Adair would be that in the region of where I live one does not repot and work on a juniper at the same time. Seeing that our growing season is very long and our summers very hot, this usually spells instant death for the tree. So, for us you do one the first year, and depending on the amount of work done... you do the other the next. This however, would not stop one from doing the surface removal as he has suggested.

 

[A Random User]

I just looked and see Sawgrass submitted a tutorial on bending and channeling. Perfect timing! Check that out and see if you are still stumped.

Thanks for the suggestion, I appreciate it!
However, the material here is to small and would not benefit from the procedure in the tutorial. Not trying to call you out, or be insulting, just trying to explain that the procedure demonstrated in the tutorial, is more of a last resort. To be done when normal bending with wire and guy wires is not sufficient. On this tree, there really would be no need, unless one is just wanting to learn how to do it. If this is the case, then yes I would encourage one tries!

 

[M. Frary]

How would that be calling me out. No need to be gunshy with me. I know what you're all about. And it bothers me in the least.
Keep up the good work and all of the helpful information coming. The bad part is that a lot of members who need it ignore what you put out there. Their loss.

 

[Adair M]

Hey!

I didn't say to "work the tree", I was just describing how to find the front!

The best time to wire and style is late fall/early winter.

It just seemed that based upon the pictures, and the angle they were taken, that he had no idea how to begin. So, I tried to get him started.

 

[A Random User]

Hey!

I didn't say to "work the tree", I was just describing how to find the front!

The best time to wire and style is late fall/early winter.

It just seemed that based upon the pictures, and the angle they were taken, that he had no idea how to begin. So, I tried to get him started.

I understand and agree, and I think you set him on the right path. I was not arguing with you. I know alot of folks in northern regions are able to work on a juniper and repot at the same time. Down here we are not able to do this. Does not matter the type, they all seem to not make it. This is all I was getting at. I read into your reply that you were suggesting he do this. If this was not what you were saying then I apologize, if it was what you were saying then that's cool as well! I was only offering advice that one needs to consider the region in which they lived to do this. Like I said, if they live up north then pot away! I wish we were able, that's all.

 

[Adair M]

The best time to "work" a juniper is fall and winter. The trees tighten up the sap layers during this time. The bark and heartwood become very tightly bound. So you don't separate the bark and cambium from the heartwood when you bend.

Summer, is different. The cambium is full of sap. The bark easily peels away from the heartwood. Twisting branches easily separates the layers.

Now, that means that Jin and Shari are easily made during the summer months. Not easily made in winter when they're all bound tight.

So, wire and style in winter.
Create Jin and Shari in summer.

 

[Adair M]

Which leads me to say that I think the way we do these "instant bonsai" demos and contests are misguiding the public. It's not the best way to create bonsai for the long term.

The key to success in bonsai is to apply the right technique at the right time. The pressure to create an instant bonsai, unfortunately sometimes forces the practitioner to do things out of season, often compromising the health of the tree.

 

[A Random User]

Well here again I would have to differ with you Adair... The reason being, how can one possibly be doing things out of season in my region, when I pretty much for the most part only have one season? With a couple of cold days thrown in. In theory... what you are saying makes sense... but, in reality, I and others down here are working junipers all out of season, making major bends in the middle of summer and have had not the slightest repercussions, other than the potting issue previously mention, because of it. Actually, I take that back... every time I have worked on a dry tree, perfect for bending, I have found that I break more branches. This is not an attack on you Adair, I have heard what you are saying, numerous times before... I just think this is one of those old wive's tales... originating from someone who clearly has seasons! And it has just been repeated and repeated so much that it has become a common understanding of what to do. Well... it is just not true. If it were, we down here then better just give up on working with junipers. Folks in Southern California better be notified as well, seeing that they are in the same predicament.

 

[A Random User]

Sorry, I wanted to add that I am not trying to argue with you Adair. I respect your opinion and have seen your work and you do very nice work! So, this is not a peeing contest... It's just that often what one finds when doing bonsai is what works in a particular climate does not work as well in another. Junipers do very well in our climate and in some instances perhaps better than others, we are able down here to easily convert procumbens to adult foliage, a feature that alot of northern folks if you talk to them say does not happen. Yet, at the same time i have lived in Colorado, where we had junipers in the front yard covered with 8 feet of snow, make it through the winter only to come out the other side as green as could be, and other than the weight of the snow, without a scratch. The only reason why I am even taking the time to add what I have to the discussion, is that I think it is vital for everyone, no matter where they live to have the bigger picture of what is possible with junipers, so we can all benefit from this knowledge, or if nothing else know that this knowledge exist.

Our biggest problem down here is the heat, and the fierceness of the sun... so with junipers and alot of other types of materials, here one just needs to be concerned about protecting from this, especially when doing drastic work on a tree. Just as I would imagine that if one lived up north, they would have to protect against the severe cold when doing drastic work in the fall or winter as you have suggested. Plants don't take well to either extremes... but, if one can offer up this protection, it is my view that one can greatly increase the amount of time one is able to perform work on them.

 

[A Random User]

Getting back to the subject at hand, don't know where Maverick disappeared to... but I think Adair offered up some good advice. First check out the base of the trunk and see what the nebari is like...

If there is something nice down there, then this needs to be worked into the design of the tree, and should be visible from the front. So, now you know what the front of the tree would be.

Often with younger junipers you are going to get what the OP has. A bunch of branches coming off of one point. Eventually over time some of these would just naturally die or remain smaller in favor of ones that the growth is more stronger on. A natural selection.

On this case, one will have to help it out, and will need to remove some of them. If not often a reverse taper will form here as the branches grow stronger and put on more growth.

Normally, one would want to reduce down to two of the branches. But, here is an instance where one could keep three. Making two into branches and the third into the continuation of the trunk. One just needs to be careful to not pick one's for branches that will create the appearance of bar branches. If two cannot be selected because of this, you will need to eliminate one of these as well.

Giving one a branch, and a continuation of the trunk. This is not to say that the continuation of the trunk has to be wired up, it could be even brought down to form a cascade.

 

[Adair M]

Sawgrass,

The local climate very much affects the types of trees you can grow, and when you can work on them.

My point is the "instant bonsai" demo/workshop is giving people the expectation that is how bonsai are created. Many types of trees are not good subjects for that kind of demonstration because you cut back, and the tree looks ugly until it grows back out.

And who's going to buy a raffle ticket to buy an ugly tree? Lol!