Thoughts on future refinement?

Adair M

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I'm assuming the first picture is the front?

The style is basically there. All you need to do is wire it, create pads of foliage.

Is there a reason it's potted sideways? It would be nice to see some nebari.
 

Chris Koehler

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Thanks for the input. Yes, the first photo shows the front. Also intent on bringing the lower branches in tighter to the tree. Yes, it does appear as though its potted sideways but it isn't. Good point re: lack of nebari--should not have potted it so low and used less soil.
 
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Also, when you go to style, put a block underneath the back two feet of the pot and bring a tree that is tilting away from the viewer, back towards us.
 

sorce

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Hey Chris Welcome to Crazy.

In the first pic, it is seemingly pushed to the back left.

I see something in, pulling it like a throttle, to the front right.

What is foilage to the left now, would be on top.

I would bring it down.

This picture is essentially (upside down?)
Inside out? Just 2d?

IMG_20151111_193340.jpg

I think the Jin looks wicked from here.
You'll still see the Shari a bit.
But still get to enjoy that bark on the backside!

Great material! Thanks!

Sorce
 

Adair M

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Ah! It's in a square pot! It looks looks likes a rectangle in the photo.

You have soil filled to the brim. And a little over! How deep did you pot it?

Don't repot now. Wait until spring. You could go ahead and brush away about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of soil. When you pot, you want the soil level, and be about 1/4 inch under the inside rim. That way water won't run off when you water.

The tree should be set at a height so that the nebari is "just visible" when you look at the tree with your eyes level with the rim of the pot.
 

Potawatomi13

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Hi Chris. We're practically brothers. You just have an extra e in your name. What kind of tree is this and how tall is it above the pot? Is it Yamadori or cultivated in a nursery. Great potential I see but disagree with some comments I see so far.;)
 

crust

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Wyre.
 

Giga

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2 min virtual with maybe a block under the back left foot to it leans up and to the right a bit? Or something like that maybe even a branch on the right of the trunk

IMG_9461.JPG
 

Vance Wood

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Here is what I do when I encounter a piece of "Raw Stock", even if it is collected, ----- especially if it is collected. Up front you know that the trunk is magnificent, the bark is good and it is probably fifty years old, or more. Much in the shape of the trunk is not going to be easily or safely changed, so you are stuck with the trunk the way it is. I try to examine the trunk from every angle possible even as viewed from underneath and don't even consider the branches at this point. I take note of the good points and the best points of the trunk from assorted views.

Once there I try to determine what kind of shape will accentuate the beauty of the trunk and where the triangle will be place to best advantage. Like it or not, if you examine every good bonsai you can find, 99% of them are an example of a gorgeous trunk even with tons of deadwood and a couple of foliage triangles placed strategically around the trunk that sets the trunk off and frames it with a story. I realize that is a simplistic view of things but it is none the less true; -- most of the time with conifers.

You will need to see and understand the branching you have and it's flexibility. You will need to know where you can move it, how many you have and how to fulfill the image you have in your mind. It can be a daunting prospect especially if you are new to this. But, you really do need to understand your trees in this way before you start hauling out your books of recognized shapes and forms. Shapes and forms you like and understand to see if you can force this tree to be one of them.

This is a mistake that usually makes for a bad design that will vex you years down the road. You need to establish some sort of relationship with your own tree and realize; if it is every going to be a first rate bonsai it needs to have an identity of it's own, not an identity that it has been forced upon it from some other tree. I keep telling people to not sit around and contemplate; "I think this tree will make a good cascade, or formal upright, or the ubiquitous wind swept (that almost never works) and the informal upright." It is a good thing to recognize and be acquainted with these classic styles and forms but it is better to acquaint yourself with photos of world class Yamadori bonsai designed by masters because this tree falls into that category, or it appears to. Very often Yamidori trees do not follow the traditional rules by the numbers. They seem to march to their own drummers and tend to make the rules rather than follow them. However they still have many of the basic traits that make a bonsai a bonsai.
 

sorce

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It is a good thing to recognize and be acquainted with these classic styles and forms but it is better to acquaint yourself with photos of world class Yamadori bonsai designed by masters because this tree falls into that category, or it appears to. Very often Yamidori trees do not follow the traditional rules by the numbers. They seem to march to their own drummers and tend to make the rules rather than follow them. However they still have many of the basic traits that make a bonsai a bonsai.

This is (insert proper adjective) to me.

I completely agree.

It is odd though, because of the contradiction, which is.....

Those same principles, the old styles, weren't they made mostly of Yamadori?

If anything, I think this is a good definition. ......of defining. .....

American Bonsai.

Using our Yamadori!

Sorce
 

Vance Wood

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This is (insert proper adjective) to me.

I completely agree.

It is odd though, because of the contradiction, which is.....

Those same principles, the old styles, weren't they made mostly of Yamadori?

If anything, I think this is a good definition. ......of defining. .....

American Bonsai.

Using our Yamadori!

Sorce
Yes; but still, I don't wish to be accused of opening Pandora's box. If you examine American Yamidori trees they still have many of the refinements and traits that make and refine classic bonsai forms. You still have approved and disapproved branch placement, specifically bar branches, branches at the inside of curves and all of the other basic things that tend to scream out at you for violating. The formation of foliage pads, the use of triangles etc, these are the basic elements of the internal combustion engine of the bonsai art that seldom change enough to cause the community to rethink their sensibilities.

Yes, the classic styles were originally Yamadori trees but; much of the way they were styled was from what could be called Surreal representation of a quasi spiritual ideal of how things should be, not always how things actually are. As I mentioned earlier Yamadori trees; seem to march to their own drummers and tend to make the rules rather than follow them.

This is a fact. If we assume that there is a book of rules that can and should be followed then we must assume they had to be defined somehow, somewhere, and sometime. How did this happen? I have said this many time before: Rules are those things that define what some master did sometime ago to achieve success.

What was done then seemed to define what others observed as being the things necessary to define a bonsai----a rule. So the ubiquitous bonsai growers seeking to emulate that success did the same thing ---- they followed a rule. In short: Art defines the rules and what they are if, enough people admire that art and seek to emulate it.

If additional art comes along and more people seek to emulate that as well then; that art defines a new set of rules that my replace the old rules or redefine them. Please understand this: Rules are for the breaking if you can get away with it by doing it so beautifully as to stimulate others to follow, and do the same--- now we have a new rule. If your art or your impression of the art is significant enough to be studied and coppied by others then you too can make the rules.
 

sorce

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Yes; but still, I don't wish to be accused of opening Pandora's box
That is almost exactly what I was thinking! (With a side of, "I hope he knows what I am Talking about!")

I know what you mean.
And that is what I like to discuss.....
The things flying out of Pandora 's box!
(Its like the literate, the scholars, to me)

Unlike some.....I....can have this discussion without fear of those things, which cause arguments!

We (all here) have been generally getting better as of late, in keeping righteous attitudes towards differences.

This is what we need to truly educate ourselves via this forum.

I call it.....putting all the ideas on the table, and when it's all out there, we can Together, sort out the BS!
This can only take place with cool heads!

Ah.....rant over! Thanks Vance!

Sorce
 

Chris Koehler

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Hey Chris Welcome to Crazy.

In the first pic, it is seemingly pushed to the back left.

I see something in, pulling it like a throttle, to the front right.

What is foilage to the left now, would be on top.
I would bring it down.

This picture is essentially (upside down?)
Inside out? Just 2d?

View attachment 86422

I think the Jin looks wicked from here.
You'll still see the Shari a bit.
But still get to enjoy that bark on the backside!

Great material! Thanks!

Sorce
Wow, excellent rendering, thank you, Very good feedback, agree, branch needs to move right!
 

Chris Koehler

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Ah! It's in a square pot! It looks looks likes a rectangle in the photo.

You have soil filled to the brim. And a little over! How deep did you pot it?

Don't repot now. Wait until spring. You could go ahead and brush away about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of soil. When you pot, you want the soil level, and be about 1/4 inch under the inside rim. That way water won't run off when you water.

The tree should be set at a height so that the nebari is "just visible" when you look at the tree with your eyes level with the rim of the pot.
Thanks Adair. Yes, any repotting completed will be done in the early spring. However, I may wait an additional year as this tree was repotted this past spring
 

Chris Koehler

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Here is what I do when I encounter a piece of "Raw Stock", even if it is collected, ----- especially if it is collected. Up front you know that the trunk is magnificent, the bark is good and it is probably fifty years old, or more. Much in the shape of the trunk is not going to be easily or safely changed, so you are stuck with the trunk the way it is. I try to examine the trunk from every angle possible even as viewed from underneath and don't even consider the branches at this point. I take note of the good points and the best points of the trunk from assorted views.

Once there I try to determine what kind of shape will accentuate the beauty of the trunk and where the triangle will be place to best advantage. Like it or not, if you examine every good bonsai you can find, 99% of them are an example of a gorgeous trunk even with tons of deadwood and a couple of foliage triangles placed strategically around the trunk that sets the trunk off and frames it with a story. I realize that is a simplistic view of things but it is none the less true; -- most of the time with conifers.

You will need to see and understand the branching you have and it's flexibility. You will need to know where you can move it, how many you have and how to fulfill the image you have in your mind. It can be a daunting prospect especially if you are new to this. But, you really do need to understand your trees in this way before you start hauling out your books of recognized shapes and forms. Shapes and forms you like and understand to see if you can force this tree to be one of them.

This is a mistake that usually makes for a bad design that will vex you years down the road. You need to establish some sort of relationship with your own tree and realize; if it is every going to be a first rate bonsai it needs to have an identity of it's own, not an identity that it has been forced upon it from some other tree. I keep telling people to not sit around and contemplate; "I think this tree will make a good cascade, or formal upright, or the ubiquitous wind swept (that almost never works) and the informal upright." It is a good thing to recognize and be acquainted with these classic styles and forms but it is better to acquaint yourself with photos of world class Yamadori bonsai designed by masters because this tree falls into that category, or it appears to. Very often Yamidori trees do not follow the traditional rules by the numbers. They seem to march to their own drummers and tend to make the rules rather than follow them. However they still have many of the basic traits that make a bonsai a bonsai.
Excellent advise Vance! Seriously, I appreciate all the detail and thought that went into your comments and recommendations, much appreciated!
 

sorce

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Wow, excellent rendering, thank you, Very good feedback, agree, branch needs to move right!
I meant the whole trunk!

Which puts it at an angle where a virtual is almost useless.

possible even as viewed from underneath
This is what I'm thinking, like we are almost looking at the bottom in pic One.

The perspective is way to leany(touched to save my bonsai words!) to tell.......

But the bark on the back is beautiful.
And if you pulled The whole trunk to front right (pic1) , so you can make out the Shari and it's not leaning too forward....

May look real pimp!

I way dig this. If you got more pics, or a mind to take em, I'd love to see em!

Sorce
 

Adair M

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What kind of pine is it?

I can't tell from your photo if the apex leans away from the viewer. It looks like it does. If this is the case, when you repot, reposition it so that the apex moves towards the viewer. Think "the tree is bowing" to the viewer. (Oh, wait! That's a Japanese custom!)
Do it anyway.

Your styling should showcase the trunk. Having foliage to the left is fine, and if you want foliage on the right (I would!), pull some foliage from the back around to the right. It's kinda like the foliage is the background, highlighting the trunk and deadwood.
 

Chris Koehler

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That is almost exactly what I was thinking! (With a side of, "I hope he knows what I am Talking about!")
Haha, well said! Yes, I believe I know what you are talking about. Well at least I think I do. :) I'm def not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I have a couple years of experience learning from lots of dumb mistakes. Definitely know I'm still a Rookie, have lot to learn. Trying to have a 'growth mindset' while taking a long-term approach to cultivating my trees even though maintaining such patience can be damn hard at times!
 

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