Thoughts on 'Ruby Loropetalum' as a bonsai? (I'd be looking to collect a ~3.5' tall shrub)

[SU2]

I'm pretty sure I can work it out so that I can take one of these shrubs, they're ~3.5' tall and maybe 5' wide, mature bushes/shrubs that've got thick (~4") trunks and good primaries if I were to cut-back to them.

I've never heard of them, but have found examples of them as bonsais on google-images, so I guess I'm not so worried about whether it can be 'bonsai'd', but how well it'd take such a massive hard-chop (I'd literally be cutting it to a central trunk w/ maybe 3-5 primary trunks, very little foliage left if any at all), and aggressive transplants (ie sawing a ~4-5' wide circle around it for excavation)

This would be a big undertaking and am really hoping for thoughts on this specie, I mean if it were a bougie/hibiscus/crape myrtle, I'd have no concern of it handling this, but I've never heard of this til looking into it just now and would really love to hear anecdotal experiences! Thanks in advance for any thoughts

 

[Vin]

They need to be collected in the spring. I haven't had any luck with chopping them. When pruning, you need to leave some foliage on any branch you plan on keeping. They will back bud but may take a bit to get going once you collect it. I would call them temperamental.

 

[BethF]

I've never collected them, but use them in the home landscape. They are tough as nails; you can cut them to the ground and they will come back vigorously. They definitely back-bud well: if you want one in the ground to branch more, all you have to do is prune the top and you get a lot of lateral growth. With their small leaf size and capacity to develop large trunks, they will probably be good bonsai specimens. Fun fact: there are a few of them that have grown into full-fledged trees on the campus of Clemson University.

 

[SU2]

They need to be collected in the spring. I haven't had any luck with chopping them. When pruning, you need to leave some foliage on any branch you plan on keeping. They will back bud but may take a bit to get going once you collect it. I would call them temperamental.

Crap, that's not what I was hoping to hear! Thanks a lot for the reply, hopefully I can prod a little more out of you- if I'm getting you correctly, you're saying you've had zero luck getting them to put out buds from hard-wood? IE, you can only collect one of these if you're taking a branch w/ leaves along when you get it?

Am in a unique situation on this one, in that it's at a friend's where I can '2-step' it, like if I went tonight and found one of the bushes had a really good, *low* branch, my instinct would (now, after your post) be to cut it back to that lowest branch, and leave it in-ground til spring (it'd grow in the meanwhile where I am, FL 9a/9b line), then collect it (if it's so temperamental, perhaps do a round or two of root-cutting before the collection, like go with a hand-saw or sawzall and carve 1/4 circumference of a 3' circle around it, to sever long roots and force them to shoot lateral roots, getting a better root-ball for the eventual collection!

Are they temperamental just when transplanting (like a passion flower vine) but solid once established? Or always a weak/fussy plant? If the latter, that really kills interest for me, not out of fear of maintaining it but I just find strong plants appealing! They are truly beautiful bushes, the foliage is great pictures don't do it justice, the bonsai'd ones I've seen online look great too

 

[SU2]

I've never collected them, but use them in the home landscape. They are tough as nails; you can cut them to the ground and they will come back vigorously. They definitely back-bud well: if you want one in the ground to branch more, all you have to do is prune the top and you get a lot of lateral growth. With their small leaf size and capacity to develop large trunks, they will probably be good bonsai specimens. Fun fact: there are a few of them that have grown into full-fledged trees on the campus of Clemson University.

Wow! Okay that's what I wanted to hear, but contradicts the post above yours.... They look hardy but that says little - are you saying they tolerate heavy pruning, or that you could actually cut them back to a stump, without any foliage remaining, and they'd back-bud on the hardwood trunk with new shoots? Because, if so...that would be epic! They seem like they'd make an incredible specimen for bonsai, and there's like 3-5 of them in a planting that are all mature with thickish trunks, just short of half a foot thick on the thickest one, with a split from 1 trunk to thick primaries happening very low on most of them - with those tiny, beautiful leaves I think it'd be outstanding as a bonsai if its able to be collected mature & cut-back!!

I notice that the person above you lives in my state, you're north of me - perhaps they don't like the heat as much and feb-->march collection is optimal here..

 

[Vin]

Crap, that's not what I was hoping to hear! Thanks a lot for the reply, hopefully I can prod a little more out of you- if I'm getting you correctly, you're saying you've had zero luck getting them to put out buds from hard-wood? IE, you can only collect one of these if you're taking a branch w/ leaves along when you get it?

No, what I am saying is I haven't had any luck chopping them at collection time. In the ground and in a pot require different approaches. I can also only pass on my experiences with them and I've only been playing around with them for ten years or so. THey need to be strong at collection time and once they have adjusted to life in a pot they become less temperamental.

[/QUOTE]Am in a unique situation on this one, in that it's at a friend's where I can '2-step' it, like if I went tonight and found one of the bushes had a really good, *low* branch, my instinct would (now, after your post) be to cut it back to that lowest branch, and leave it in-ground til spring (it'd grow in the meanwhile where I am, FL 9a/9b line), then collect it (if it's so temperamental, perhaps do a round or two of root-cutting before the collection, like go with a hand-saw or sawzall and carve 1/4 circumference of a 3' circle around it, to sever long roots and force them to shoot lateral roots, getting a better root-ball for the eventual collection![/QUOTE]

This is certainly one approach I would consider. The other being to leave plenty of foliage on it when collecting it until it settles down.

[/QUOTE]Are they temperamental just when transplanting (like a passion flower vine) but solid once established? Or always a weak/fussy plant? If the latter, that really kills interest for me, not out of fear of maintaining it but I just find strong plants appealing! They are truly beautiful bushes, the foliage is great pictures don't do it justice, the bonsai'd ones I've seen online look great too [/QUOTE]

For me, they have been temperamental after hard pruning or messing with their roots. Once established they have been less temperamental. I'll post a photo of a great one that died tonight.

I'm not trying to be negative about them. In fact, I hope your experiences are more successful than mine so I can see if there is a better approach to maintaining them in pots. Like you, I believe they are beautiful. If you can get in contact with Mike Feduccia, he has extensive knowledge on them. For some reason I think he is studying with Ryan Neil right now but I could be wrong.

 

[Vin]

One of four Collected Loropetalums that were chopped and potted.



Some growth sprouted around the base but that eventually died as well.

 

[BethF]

Wow! Okay that's what I wanted to hear, but contradicts the post above yours.... They look hardy but that says little - are you saying they tolerate heavy pruning, or that you could actually cut them back to a stump, without any foliage remaining, and they'd back-bud on the hardwood trunk with new shoots? Because, if so...that would be epic! They seem like they'd make an incredible specimen for bonsai, and there's like 3-5 of them in a planting that are all mature with thickish trunks, just short of half a foot thick on the thickest one, with a split from 1 trunk to thick primaries happening very low on most of them - with those tiny, beautiful leaves I think it'd be outstanding as a bonsai if its able to be collected mature & cut-back!!

I notice that the person above you lives in my state, you're north of me - perhaps they don't like the heat as much and feb-->march collection is optimal here..

Anecdotal, but here goes: There's one in the front yard (planted by previous owner) that grows too tall for the space. It has to be pruned constantly throughout the year. A few years ago, I got fed up with it and cut all the trunks to less than a foot off the ground. No foliage left on it whatsoever. In the middle of winter. No mulch. No mercy. By mid-spring the shoots that developed off the old wood were over 7 feet high and still growing. So, IMHO, they are probably good candidates for bonsai.

 

[SU2]

No, what I am saying is I haven't had any luck chopping them at collection time. In the ground and in a pot require different approaches. I can also only pass on my experiences with them and I've only been playing around with them for ten years or so. THey need to be strong at collection time and once they have adjusted to life in a pot they become less temperamental.

Okay I get you, do not do the hard-chopping when collecting! Am so glad you saw this thread And very happy to hear that they become less temperamental once they've established in a container! Once established, how fast do they grow, like are they slower/faster or just 'normal'? The shrubs don't seem to be that-fast growers, but things change when you're bonsai'ing something!

This is certainly one approach I would consider. The other being to leave plenty of foliage on it when collecting it until it settles down.

Yeah I was thinking that the low-branch that I leave on, I wouldn't touch - leave every growing-tip there to grow, and leave it in-ground til spring (obviously doing a 'root severing' at that hard-chopping, taking the hand-saw and carving a 3' circle around it to force the roots within that circle to start throwing radial/lateral roots), at spring it should have a better root-ball for collecting and will have had many months of recovery from the hard-chop meaning not only would that low branch have grown but it'd probably have thrown new shoots by then!

For me, they have been temperamental after hard pruning or messing with their roots. Once established they have been less temperamental. I'll post a photo of a great one that died tonight.

Oh no what happened? Sorry Would love to see it, sucks it's gone :/ [unless you meant that one that was hard-chopped + simultaneously collected that you pictured beneath this post]

I'm not trying to be negative about them. In fact, I hope your experiences are more successful than mine so I can see if there is a better approach to maintaining them in pots. Like you, I believe they are beautiful. If you can get in contact with Mike Feduccia, he has extensive knowledge on them. For some reason I think he is studying with Ryan Neil right now but I could be wrong.

I hope you keep trying to hone the collection process yourself - you said you've been doing it 10yrs though, I've gotta say that that's pretty intimidating as I've got just over a year of bonsai experience!!

 

[SU2]

One of four Collected Loropetalums that were chopped and potted.

assuming that that is *not* the one you were referring to that just died, what became of the other 3 from that session of collecting? (if you're collecting a large enough # of these, are you able to guesstimate a success rate like 4/10 or 7/10?)

 

[Vin]

assuming that that is *not* the one you were referring to that just died, what became of the other 3 from that session of collecting? (if you're collecting a large enough # of these, are you able to guesstimate a success rate like 4/10 or 7/10?)

They all died. I have one that I purchased from a garden center that did well in a pot. I ended up putting it in the ground where it will stay until it gets as big as the one I posted at which time I'll dig it up and put it back in a pot. I'm confident this one will survive. I have about 10 others in the ground as well but I think I'm just going to let them stay there.

 

[Vin]

Okay I get you, do not do the hard-chopping when collecting! Am so glad you saw this thread And very happy to hear that they become less temperamental once they've established in a container! Once established, how fast do they grow, like are they slower/faster or just 'normal'? The shrubs don't seem to be that-fast growers, but things change when you're bonsai'ing something!


Yeah I was thinking that the low-branch that I leave on, I wouldn't touch - leave every growing-tip there to grow, and leave it in-ground til spring (obviously doing a 'root severing' at that hard-chopping, taking the hand-saw and carving a 3' circle around it to force the roots within that circle to start throwing radial/lateral roots), at spring it should have a better root-ball for collecting and will have had many months of recovery from the hard-chop meaning not only would that low branch have grown but it'd probably have thrown new shoots by then!


Oh no what happened? Sorry Would love to see it, sucks it's gone :/ [unless you meant that one that was hard-chopped + simultaneously collected that you pictured beneath this post]


I hope you keep trying to hone the collection process yourself - you said you've been doing it 10yrs though, I've gotta say that that's pretty intimidating as I've got just over a year of bonsai experience!!

They grow pretty fast, not like a crepe myrtle but pretty fast.

 

[SU2]

They all died. I have one that I purchased from a garden center that did well in a pot. I ended up putting it in the ground where it will stay until it gets as big as the one I posted at which time I'll dig it up and put it back in a pot. I'm confident this one will survive. I have about 10 others in the ground as well but I think I'm just going to let them stay there.

Damn that's too bad I'm going to have to go take another look at these bushes I'm scoping, see if any have really dense/ramified lower branches, I don't think I'd cut-back to a first branch if it was wimpy I'm betting it wouldn't survive :/

 

[SU2]

They grow pretty fast, not like a crepe myrtle but pretty fast.

Good to know, thanks If I were to chop-back to a single strong, low branch now, it'd be pretty likely I'd be set for collection in spring! Will be seeing them again on sunday so will see whether any have low foliage

 

[Vin]

Good to know, thanks If I were to chop-back to a single strong, low branch now, it'd be pretty likely I'd be set for collection in spring! Will be seeing them again on sunday so will see whether any have low foliage

I'd agree with that.

 

[Vin]

Damn that's too bad I'm going to have to go take another look at these bushes I'm scoping, see if any have really dense/ramified lower branches, I don't think I'd cut-back to a first branch if it was wimpy I'm betting it wouldn't survive :/

I still look at that photo every once and think what it could have been. Just in case you haven't cut a big Loro before, the wood is very hard so bring the proper tools.

 

[SU2]

I'd agree with that.

Good stuff, thank you!! Can't wait til sunday when I can see if there's any lower branches sporting good growth, will chop sunday if that's the case (down to the lowest branch, and probably 1/3 or 1/2 of the root-circumference severing) Most of them had awesome branching starting real low on the trunk, but how far-off foliage was I cannot recall, hopefully I can make something work here as I really want one of these!!

I still look at that photo every once and think what it could have been. Just in case you haven't cut a big Loro before, the wood is very hard so bring the proper tools.

I still do the same with a photo of my 1st attempt at hard-chopping, I'd just found out what yamadori/hard-chopping was and got back into bonsai because of it (had quit years ago, the slow-growth of my mallsai completely squashed my interest in them as I'm reallllly preferential to larger bonsai), anyways I had a ficus benjamina topiary I'd been maintaining some years, incredible nebari and 4-5" thick, I cut it down to maybe 6" thinking I'd have such an incredible specimen - perfect trunk/root-flare, unfortunately I didn't find out til later that f.benjaminas don't back-bud from hardwood if you remove all green growth (I've heard people say that's wrong, that they do, but have had multiple people tell me the attempt was a failure from the get-go due to the specie..) Regardless, I still look at that pic, if that thing took it would probably be amongst my favorite trees right now!!

 

[SU2]

Oh and re the cutting, they're right beside a power-source so I'll be able to use a sawzall where it's needed (and, luckily, am a pretty strong person myself ), I wonder how hard it is relative to crape myrtle? I was incredibly surprised when I started messing with crapes, just how much harder their wood is than a bougie's!!

 

[SU2]

I still look at that photo every once and think what it could have been. Just in case you haven't cut a big Loro before, the wood is very hard so bring the proper tools.

Well, I've gotta say I was very very under-whelmed with their roots, even the larger ones wobbled pretty easily, I ended up getting one of the smaller ones as it had good lower-growth but the problem is there was virtually no 'root ball' just long, lignified roots (as you know!) so wanted to ask you- do you use IBA when doing these? Since I'll be cutting thick, lignified roots and transplanting this specimen (it's currently in a bag with a wet cloth around its roots, I just got it home and have misted the leaves, about to prep soil / container but realized I'm unsure on whether to use IBA or not as I know some plants do better with the hormone, others do worse!

Will post pics once I've got it settled I just wanted to post now in case you saw, to hear if you know anything about using IBA with it

[edit- also, *any* other potting techniques you recommend? For instance, I fertilize bougies when transplanting a collected yamma, unsure what to do with this so will default to 5-10% label rating of a balanced fertilizer plus 5-10% reco of minerals....am unsure if I'm going to use any 'bayer 3-in-1' the disease-preventing treatment, am unsure if that's a smart thing to treat with now! And about light, I'm unsure so am planning to keep it in my patio - indirect light only - until I find out more! Oh also what zone are you in? Avg humidity? Right now in my 9a/9b area we are in the rainiest part of the year, it's like a greenhouse outside!!]

 

[Vin]

Well, I've gotta say I was very very under-whelmed with their roots, even the larger ones wobbled pretty easily, I ended up getting one of the smaller ones as it had good lower-growth but the problem is there was virtually no 'root ball' just long, lignified roots (as you know!) so wanted to ask you- do you use IBA when doing these? Since I'll be cutting thick, lignified roots and transplanting this specimen (it's currently in a bag with a wet cloth around its roots, I just got it home and have misted the leaves, about to prep soil / container but realized I'm unsure on whether to use IBA or not as I know some plants do better with the hormone, others do worse!

Will post pics once I've got it settled I just wanted to post now in case you saw, to hear if you know anything about using IBA with it

[edit- also, *any* other potting techniques you recommend? For instance, I fertilize bougies when transplanting a collected yamma, unsure what to do with this so will default to 5-10% label rating of a balanced fertilizer plus 5-10% reco of minerals....am unsure if I'm going to use any 'bayer 3-in-1' the disease-preventing treatment, am unsure if that's a smart thing to treat with now! And about light, I'm unsure so am planning to keep it in my patio - indirect light only - until I find out more!]

I've not used IBA on them in the past but I really don't think there would be any issue with using it. Who knows, maybe that's the secret to a successful start. Also, mixing in a teaspoon of Miracle Gro with the soil isn't going to hurt anything either. I would keep it in the shade until you start seeing some encouraging signs of a successful transplant. Misting the leaves isn't going to do a thing.