Thoughts

[Jayletham]

Hi guys,
I'm new here, but have seen some great advice given to other queries so thought I'd try my luck...
I've just got my hands on a lovely Scots Pine that's pretty old now with a nice thick trunk at the base (8 inches ish diameter) with a slight curve at the bottom. It's lived it's whole life in a pot so the transplant shouldn't be too difficult for it. I guess I have two questions really.

1. Rather than just cutting the the whole tree back to where I'd like to try and grow a new leader, I was thinking about trying to air layer a new tree out of it half way up first. Do we think this is likely to work and is it worth it, very straight trunk after the bottom foot?

2. Any thoughts on what the long term plan for the main base of the trunk should be? It's got a slight curve and great bark, but is obviously still pretty straight with a very thick trunk. Should I even try and get a leader from the top edge of wherever I cut it down to and attempt to pretend that that was a very tapered trunk all along, or should i just admit that this will always be a separate part of the tree, then maybe pot it at an extreme angle and let a new leader grow straight up from the side half way along (I've seen a few bonsais like this). And perhaps let that main trunk then die back a little as a feature?

Pics attached

Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.
Jay

 

[TomB]

Scots pines are probably impossible to air layer. I have never heard of anyone doing it successfully.

 

[Jayletham]

Scots pines are probably impossible to air layer. I have never heard of anyone doing it successfully.

Great, thanks Tom, saved me wasting my time with that one. And probably a good time of year (late winter) just to try and crack on with doing something with the main trunk?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

If you're going to chop it off either way, I see no harm in trying to layer it.
Scots pines are hard to layer, but as root cuttings they respond similar to JBP. I think very little people have actually tried to layer scots; they're cheap and almost globally available, there's no need for layering.

 

[sorce]

I'd ditch everything above the first whorl.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[TomB]

If you're going to chop it off either way, I see no harm in trying to layer it.

You waste a year and weaken the tree.

btw I have tried it, unsuccessfully

 

[TomB]

Great, thanks Tom, saved me wasting my time with that one. And probably a good time of year (late winter) just to try and crack on with doing something with the main trunk?

Depends on what you have in mind for development/design really, and your appetite for risk. I might be inclined to get it established in a pot/box first.

 

[sorce]

You waste a year and weaken the tree.

What makes this true for you?

What makes it untrue for me is....

The remaining part is going to build a better connection with it's roots while all the top is being fed by the roots.

As the top slowly doesn't reconnect/dies, the living roots have a better chance of creating new paths to feed the remaining tree.

A chop is abrupt, so the roots associated with the top are more likely to be abandoned.

It has all the other benefits of a chop, backbuds, shorter tree eventually, but with this root bonus.

Sorce

 

[Jayletham]

Depends on what you have in mind for development/design really, and your appetite for risk. I might be inclined to get it established in a pot/box first.

Thanks everyone, yeah I think I'll forget about the layering. Huge amount of time for very little gain.

It was grown in pots all its life so I think will be pretty well established as soon as I pop it in a new one later today. Happy to take a risk with it. If cutting it back to the first whorl and getting a lead from that would it not make it a ridiculously extreme taper, or could this look ok with time? Or should I leave a little more of the trunk, pot it at an angle with the bulk of the tree coming off it, then turn the current trunk into some kind of carved dead wood feature? Or any other ideas?

 

[Jayletham]

What makes this true for you?

What makes it untrue for me is....

The remaining part is going to build a better connection with it's roots while all the top is being fed by the roots.

As the top slowly doesn't reconnect/dies, the living roots have a better chance of creating new paths to feed the remaining tree.

A chop is abrupt, so the roots associated with the top are more likely to be abandoned.

It has all the other benefits of a chop, backbuds, shorter tree eventually, but with this root bonus.

Sorce

Just replied with another question as you sent this above. What's your thoughts on the best plan for the actual tree? Not too concerned about risk on this one and happy to crack on and give something a go. Just wondering on what people think would give the best end result.

 

[Shibui]

The ridiculously extreme taper after a major chop is only temporary. The tree will put lots of extra resources into the new leader and the size difference tends to even out after a few years.
i would leave a good portion of the old trunk as a possible dead wood feature. It may end up looking great or may be crap but can then be removed quite easily. Harder to put some on if you decide a jin would look better. Leaving something will give you some good practice in dead wood techniques and carving, even if it doesn't stay long term.
I'd also leave a few extra branches at first thinking along the lines of Sorce. Remaining branches help the tree divert sap flow to the remaining parts. Remove extra branches over a couple of years to reach the final configuration safer and better.
Planting at an angle will depend greatly on the roots you find. No point planting on an angle if half the roots are buried deep and the other half stick out of the ground. Nebari should hug the soil surface. Often removing a couple of roots from one side can help but older trees like this tend to have thicker, stiffer roots that are harder to manipulate.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Air layer on P. sylvestris will most likely fail. I have tried and failed. Pines in general do not air layer. There are rare exceptions, most pines do not air layer. If you are going to have success, the section of trunk to be air layered needs to be less than 5 years old. Most success was with one or two year old wood. Mature wood will simply not air layer.


An 8 inch diameter trunk is large, good for larger bonsai. A common size is a 5:1 :: Height : diameter. This would predict your finished tree would be around 40 inches tall. Sizes from 2:1 to 10 : 1 are the most common height to trunk diameter ratios.

Creating taper will be difficult. If you cut back to the first whorl, you would then pick a leader, let it grow out, until the new leader is close to 6 inches in diameter. Then cut this leader back to its first whorl, then let the new leader grow out to be 4 inches in diameter, then cut back to its first whorl, then let grow out until new leader is 2 inches in diameter.

As you can see, the above sequence could easily take 20 years or more.

My suggestion would be to pick a height, maybe first, maybe second probably tops would be 3rd whorl. Then jin, or remove the bark on the trunk above that point. Keep at least 3 feet of deadwood, at least initially. The low branches in the first and second whorl look flexible enough to bend pretty much any way you want.

Pick a mental scenario, avalanche, rockfall, lightning strike, windstorm. Draw out several options as to how the branches would need to be arranged to make the scenario believable. Then pick one and use it as your plan. Using a damaged tree scenario you can have a believable bonsai in less than 10, maybe less than 5 years.

Practice on wood scavenged from local forests or wood lots, practice different carving techniques. Practice making a stick look like it was involved in your selected scenario - say lightning strike. Once you can make any old stick look like it was hit by lightning (or what ever scenario you chose) you can carve up the deadwood you left on the Pine. Don't make the pine your first carving project. Practice first, then carve the "good tree".

Really only the first whorl or two of trunk and branches are interesting. Styling the tree as windblown & broken, or lightning struck is the only sensible thing you can do and get results in less than 20 years.

However, if you are under the age of 40 years, or if you plan to live to over 100 years, you could take the slow route and do the cut back and grow out I outlined in the beginning of my post.

It is all up to what you would like to do.

 

[Jayletham]

Thanks everyone, and Leo and Shibui for your very helpful advice yesterday evening. I wish I had been slightly more patient and checked my emails before cutting it back and re-potting it yesterday. I agree with both of your comments, and should have left a a few feet of trunk as dead would that I could have done what I wanted with at a later date. Anyway, my lesson for next time is a little more patience.

So just by way of an update, I've repotted at an angle, great root ball with lots of fine roots that were easy to move. And left just 18 inches ish of trunk (wish I had left more). Thinking now as I didn't leave so much trunk for dead wood, that I will use one of the lowest branches as a leader for a little tree, which then still allows some dead wood above. So essentially do they same, but long term make a far smaller tree out of it. Will let it get settled in it's new home for now though. Latest pic attached. If anyone has any final thoughts about how much I've ruined it and what else I could do that would be appreciated also

Anyway, thanks so much everyone, really appreciated all your comments. Got a very large Japanese Maple coming from in February so will probably be back for more help then

 

[James W.]

Definitely not ruined. Not as much trunk to play with as Leo would have liked, but it's not all gone either. Taking the slow route, your next trunk extension is in that 1st whorl.

BTW, I almost missed seeing your comments because they look like they are part of a quote. You can fix that by editing out the symbols for beginning and ending a quote.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

My suggestion would be to pick a height, maybe first, maybe second probably tops would be 3rd whorl. Then jin, or remove the bark on the trunk above that point. Keep at least 3 feet of deadwood, at least initially.

This is great advice, particularly with conifers. Tree damage like this occurs commonly in nature - particularly in areas with high winds (mountain ridges and passes, etc). When styling a tree for the first time, I sometimes spend an hour or two looking at photos of nature in order to get "motivated" for styling a tree. Sometimes I will go so far as to print out a photo and have it next to me as I prune and wire.

You are going to have a challenge developing ramification on those low branches. Make sure to wire them all and arrange them so they get plenty of light and air. Be careful not to eliminate any growth close to the trunk whether it is a bud or a branch - even if you aren't certain you will keep it long term. At this point you just want the tree to survive and strengthen.

 

[Jayletham]

This is great advice, particularly with conifers. Tree damage like this occurs commonly in nature - particularly in areas with high winds (mountain ridges and passes, etc). When styling a tree for the first time, I sometimes spend an hour or two looking at photos of nature in order to get "motivated" for styling a tree. Sometimes I will go so far as to print out a photo and have it next to me as I prune and wire.

You are going to have a challenge developing ramification on those low branches. Make sure to wire them all and arrange them so they get plenty of light and air. Be careful not to eliminate any growth close to the trunk whether it is a bud or a branch - even if you aren't certain you will keep it long term. At this point you just want the tree to survive and strengthen.

Thanks for this. Yes I've cut it so far back now need to try and make sure it survives the trauma... And yes ramification feels like it's going to be a challenge, especially given English weather..