NeyensNeuro
Seedling
In terms of keeping vertical foliage, I'm seeing other threads (@mattspinniken, and see attached) where the fronds are wired flat or even suggested to cut vertical foliage. Were they just temporarily flattened for presentation?
Thuja occidentalis from stock - cold tolerance
- Thread starter NeyensNeuro
- Start date
In terms of keeping vertical foliage, I'm seeing other threads (@mattspinniken, and see attached) where the fronds are wired flat or even suggested to cut vertical foliage. Were they just temporarily flattened for presentation?
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Hehe!
Pa iksitii aen naami!
As you learn about coniferous (and most others, realistically) "TinyTree development"... You will discover that most vertical, up OR downwards, growth, that truly leaves the trunk OR branches in these directions... Is simply cannon-fodder and pruned away!
(I'm curious if you type in what I said at the top, if Google would translate it)
Here's a tad more explanation.
Also there is a bunch of darn good Bonsai YouTube channels.. you'll find "what you like"..
But I BOTH strongly recommend watching the Mirai:Beginner series, IN FULL to beef up your foundational knowledge (I watched these NOT as a beginner and found the wisdom contained therein to be superbly beneficial)..
AND a channel called "Growing Bonsai by Jelle"... Fantastic stuff, gorgeous trees and really does a great job of TEACHING the learner/viewer the concepts contained.
Pa iksitii aen naami!
As you learn about coniferous (and most others, realistically) "TinyTree development"... You will discover that most vertical, up OR downwards, growth, that truly leaves the trunk OR branches in these directions... Is simply cannon-fodder and pruned away!
(I'm curious if you type in what I said at the top, if Google would translate it)
Here's a tad more explanation.
Also there is a bunch of darn good Bonsai YouTube channels.. you'll find "what you like"..
But I BOTH strongly recommend watching the Mirai:Beginner series, IN FULL to beef up your foundational knowledge (I watched these NOT as a beginner and found the wisdom contained therein to be superbly beneficial)..
AND a channel called "Growing Bonsai by Jelle"... Fantastic stuff, gorgeous trees and really does a great job of TEACHING the learner/viewer the concepts contained.
NeyensNeuro
Seedling
Hehe!
Pa iksitii aen naami!
As you learn about coniferous (and most others, realistically) "TinyTree development"... You will discover that most vertical, up OR downwards, growth, that truly leaves the trunk OR branches in these directions... Is simply cannon-fodder and pruned away!
(I'm curious if you type in what I said at the top, if Google would translate it)
Here's a tad more explanation.View attachment 477729
View attachment 477730
Also there is a bunch of darn good Bonsai YouTube channels.. you'll find "what you like"..
But I BOTH strongly recommend watching the Mirai:Beginner series, IN FULL to beef up your foundational knowledge (I watched these NOT as a beginner and found the wisdom contained therein to be superbly beneficial)..
AND a channel called "Growing Bonsai by Jelle"... Fantastic stuff, gorgeous trees and really does a great job of TEACHING the learner/viewer the concepts contained.
(It didn't translate haha)
Thank you for the additional tips. I already knew the theory and aesthetics of which branches to cut etc, my question was specific to thuja foliage though. Am I really going to harm the tree if I wire the foliage flat? I ask because I'm confused from what I've seen in other threads and images of completed trees where nearly everything is layered flat
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
The tree's foliage..
When you flatten a section by hand, you can see that layers of it ARE flat, and line up like that... The foliage is just "droopy" when it is a "pre-branch".
You end up, WHEN READY for creating branch ramification, removing quite a bit of foliage.. basically selecting...
Oh.. ok!
I think I understand what you mean!
If you have a branch that looks like this...
Its not ACTUALLY vertical-facing growth... Just twisted to get the light...
You can totally twist it "back" .. just make sure it's the correct way!
(But before the twist, the growth on this "line" remains upward-oriented, and will be removed)
NeyensNeuro
Seedling
The tree's foliage..
When you flatten a section by hand, you can see that layers of it ARE flat, and line up like that... The foliage is just "droopy" when it is a "pre-branch".
You end up, WHEN READY for creating branch ramification, removing quite a bit of foliage.. basically selecting...
Oh.. ok!
I think I understand what you mean!
If you have a branch that looks like this...View attachment 477731
Its not ACTUALLY vertical-facing growth... Just twisted to get the light...
You can totally twist it "back" .. just make sure it's the correct way!
(But before the twist, the growth on this "line" remains upward-oriented, and will be removed)
Ah! Okay. So you're saying that the foliage in the attached image isn't necessarily "growing" vertically, the tree has just turned the foliage at an angle that catches the most light? The branches will still have upward/downward secondary branches that need to cut for aesthetics, but I can lay the lateral branches flat without damaging the tree? Is there a clear color or difference between the "top" and "underside" of the foliage?
Sorry for beating a dead horse. I'm excited to get in there, I just don't want to kill the tree because of my ignorance with the species.
Attachments
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HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Yes, each little flat section is a pad...and HAS a top and bottom "face"
While all thujas will do this to SOME extent, A lot of "fancy thuja" or "Nursery arbovitarae" cultivars/stock are more prone to this trait as it lends itself to an attractive, yard cone in no-time.
The wild ones here actually send long "weeping" foliage until their strength and quest for sun straightens them.
.
If you are anxious, take it slow...
One dude, who has an affinity and real gift for "staging down trees with patience" and is familiar with thuja is @Eckhoffw ..
Not sure if he's in this thread yet, but I'm sure he could help offer some insight ('mongst the others we 'summoned')
While all thujas will do this to SOME extent, A lot of "fancy thuja" or "Nursery arbovitarae" cultivars/stock are more prone to this trait as it lends itself to an attractive, yard cone in no-time.
The wild ones here actually send long "weeping" foliage until their strength and quest for sun straightens them.
.If you are anxious, take it slow...
One dude, who has an affinity and real gift for "staging down trees with patience" and is familiar with thuja is @Eckhoffw ..
Not sure if he's in this thread yet, but I'm sure he could help offer some insight ('mongst the others we 'summoned')
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Yes, each little flat section is a pad...and HAS a top and bottom "face"
While all thujas will do this to SOME extent, A lot of "fancy thuja" or "Nursery arbovitarae" cultivars/stock are more prone to this trait as it lends itself to an attractive, yard cone in no-time.
The wild ones here actually send long "weeping" foliage until their strength and quest for sun straightens them.
If you are anxious, take it slow...
One dude, who has an affinity and real gift for "staging down trees with patience" and is familiar with thuja is @Eckhoffw ..
Not sure if he's in this thread yet, but I'm sure he could help offer some insight ('mongst the others we 'summoned')
Because it's important not to JUST listen to ONE lunatic!
NeyensNeuro
Seedling
Because it's important not to JUST listen to ONE lunatic!
No, you've been so helpful! These last comments especially clicked
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Absolutely!
And I do, HAPPEN, to not be a TOTAL lunatic!
Buuuut there's no way for you to know that!
Just trying to promote transparency and "listening to/learning multiple sides/theories/approaches.. before assembling your own"... It's a living art, and we all express differently. So finding your "voice/brushstroke" is important (In my opinion).
Soooak it all in....
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Look into Penjing/Penzai.. and how the idea/presentation differs from Bonsai (If you haven't).
Check out "Hon non Bo" (If you have not)
Different regions of the world vary in their tiny tree presentation, as well,due to local species, climates and cultural influence.
(Spain, Indonesia, and south America have real interesting "things" going on recently)
Just avenues to explore if you were unfamiliar.
Check out "Hon non Bo" (If you have not)
Different regions of the world vary in their tiny tree presentation, as well,due to local species, climates and cultural influence.
(Spain, Indonesia, and south America have real interesting "things" going on recently)
Just avenues to explore if you were unfamiliar.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Sorry for the late answer . Your in a bit of a pickle but not to bad . As others have said . There is no doubt . It’s not been outside in zone 4 from the colour mainly . ( nursery cultivars are mostly improved colour ) but they all get degrees of olive drab to downright ugly think it’s dead in the winter . They are tough trees . But need to be transitioned like others into dormancy . I think the bonsai shuffle is your best bet . Outside full sun during the day . And in un heated shed at night until . It’s above freezing during the night . I’m betting it won’t miss a beat . Maybe sulk a slight amount waking up in spring . Then just start growing . Not sure what your plans are visa repotting . Fairly confident I would leave it alone root wise this spring . Just slip pot it into a larger pot . With some coarse soil . Leave it alone to acclimatize to your yard , if it grows healthy mid summer give it a hair cut . To get some light inside to promote interior growth . Do not do not cut it back to bare wood leave green . Shoots I would be conservative this first summer . Repot into bonsai soil next spring . You could attempt the repot this spring but . Considering the situation it may not like it . .
Eckhoffw
Masterpiece
Thanks for the kind words,Yes, each little flat section is a pad...and HAS a top and bottom "face"
While all thujas will do this to SOME extent, A lot of "fancy thuja" or "Nursery arbovitarae" cultivars/stock are more prone to this trait as it lends itself to an attractive, yard cone in no-time.
The wild ones here actually send long "weeping" foliage until their strength and quest for sun straightens them.
If you are anxious, take it slow...
One dude, who has an affinity and real gift for "staging down trees with patience" and is familiar with thuja is @Eckhoffw ..
Not sure if he's in this thread yet, but I'm sure he could help offer some insight ('mongst the others we 'summoned')
I think you’ve hit on a lot of good points with thuja in general.
In regards to foliage, like @HorseloverFat mentioned, different sub species are going to make The biggest difference in regards to pad tightness.
I have maybe a half a dozen different thuja I’m messing with. The ‘ DeGroots Spire,” and my ‘Hertz Midget,” have foliage 1/3 the size of the others.
Ones collected from nature + less tampered with species, can have extremely long leaves.
As others may have mentioned, design your tree to scale with the size of the foliage.
As far as vertical leaves, I try to wire them to a near flat plane over time. Like 2 wirings. I’ve heard more than once that they don’t like their leaves being twisted away from the position they’ve found optimal for light absorption. That said, once they are in a pot, that position will change fairly regularly anyways.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
If your researching bonsai info . Hinoki Cypress had almost a cult following in the bonsai world . Any info in Hinoki will transfer almost 100 percent to thuja . Hinoki has tighter foliage . And can be grafted to thuja . The trees very closely related .
Eckhoffw
Masterpiece
This thuja was dug from my parent yard.
It got damaged from another fallen tree in a wind storm.
Long foliage, it will stay larger, so I will keep it rather big.
This tree was potted up in a sawed down recycled bin. Left to grow for a year with only minimal guide wire, and structural wiring, and some dead wood carving.
It’s looking pretty shaggy as of now, but I hope to loosely form the pads this year.
It got damaged from another fallen tree in a wind storm.
Long foliage, it will stay larger, so I will keep it rather big.
This tree was potted up in a sawed down recycled bin. Left to grow for a year with only minimal guide wire, and structural wiring, and some dead wood carving.
It’s looking pretty shaggy as of now, but I hope to loosely form the pads this year.
NeyensNeuro
Seedling
Thanks for the advice! I had settled on the "shuffle" idea for the next several weeks. We may get lucky and have consistent temps above freezing soon.
I was not planning to repot or do any root work this year, but I am anxious to do some pruning and styling. I removed a handful of small (sucker?) shoots from the base with new branch cutters, and there are 3 nice trunks. Given the arrow-straight trunks, I'm thinking formal upright / sankan style with maybe slight movement in the trunks. Ultimately, I would like to have a break and deadwood features in the largest, main trunk.
The foliage pads seem pretty big, so this means that I should keep the trees fairly large as well? Last I checked, there seems to be a decent amount of budding near the trunks, so could I try to encourage and maintain smaller foliage moving forward?
NeyensNeuro
Seedling
Looks like it will be an awesome try with the refinement! Honestly, the three vertical trunks look very similar to what's hiding behind the foliage in my tree. Will you be bending those vertical primary branches down to shape the pads or just the secondary branches?
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
When they are young like that . They bend very easily . So other styles are very doable . With that material . They are apical dominant especially a cultivar like yours . Most likely a narrow upright , once it’s established healthy like I said you can cut it back to interior growth . To keep the foliage tight . Requires intensive patient determined . Pinching the new growth . You may want to consider . Trimming part of the tree back like one or 2 of the trunks and slowing the other to grow as a sacrificial . To thicken the trunk and base . This is a common practice in bonsai . You create a trunk and basic structure first
NeyensNeuro
Seedling
Dumb question 
: how can I distinguish the underside versus the top of the foliage? Supposedly there are glands on the bottom, but I'm having a hard time seeing them. I wouldn't want to wire a pad upside down haha
: how can I distinguish the underside versus the top of the foliage? Supposedly there are glands on the bottom, but I'm having a hard time seeing them. I wouldn't want to wire a pad upside down haha
Eckhoffw
Masterpiece
Underside usually has a slightly lighter more muted color.
HorseloverFat
Squarepants with Conkers
Only rely on this rule when 100-percent "awake"...
They are Wiley tricksters like "napi" of the "siksika".
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