Thunbergii vs. Thunbergiana?

BuckeyeOne

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So, I'm getting a couple batches of JBP seeds ready for planting.
I hot water soaked for 48hrs. and will cold stratify for 30 days.
As I'm prepping labels, I notice that the seeds from Myseeds.com are labelled as Pinus Thunbergiana. When I check online sources, it refers to these as 'Kotobuki'.
The seeds rom Sheffields are labelled as Thungergii. Online sources mention many different cultivars.
?
 

markyscott

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FYI

 

BuckeyeOne

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That's what I'm afraid of!! Guess I'll have to wait a year or two see.
My first batch of 'Mikawa' from myseeds.com only yielded many a dozen out of 60+ seeds sown!
I still would like to know the difference between the two.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Names, taxonomy is a "tedious" discipline. There is a whole archana, regarding the "official" naming of plants. The whole system of scientific names started with Carolus Linnaeus, back in the middle of the 1700's. The system depends on the deposition of a type specimen, with a description of the salient characteristics in an herbarium. Then from the date of the specimen being entered into the herbarium, all future specimens are compared to that particular specimen. The Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew, outside London, UK maintains the lists of officially recognized scientific names of all plants world wide. (or at least that is the goal of their list). What is the correct scientific name for any given species of tree depends on a complex set of rules, all based on precedence. First validly published name (according to rules by IUPAC & Kew) has priority of later names. Revisions are allowed, but must follow "the rules". Needless to say, while the answer may be simple, the why is complicated.

Answer. The correct name for the species of pine native to Japan, Korea & parts of China, known in english as Japanese Black Pine, is Pinus thunbergii. The name Pinus thunbergiana, and Pinus thunbergianum are synonyms but considered invalid names, as they are incorrect modifications rendering to botanical Latin of the name Carl Peter Thunberg (aka Karl Pehr von Thunberg), in whose honor the species was named. Note, in formal written works, the botanical name is italicised, and cultivar names are in normal font, capitalized and in single quotes.

The name Pinus thunbergii applies to all members of the species. The name Pinus thunbergii 'Kotobuki' is a cultivar name. This name applies only to specimens vegetatively reproduced from one single seedling of JBP. To carry the name 'Kotobuki' the plant must be a clone, a vegetatively reproduced copy from the original plant. In commerce, they are all either grafted trees or air layered trees from the original. The production from seed, means there has been a reassortment of the genetics. If a seed is taken from a cone on a plant of 'Kotobuki' and it is planted, sprouts, this seedling can not be called 'Kotobuki' because when seed is made there is a guaranteed reassortment of the genetics. It may only be labeled Pinus thunbergii. Seedlings may share some traits with their parents, but will not be identical, therefore can not be referred to by the cultivar (clonal) name. Other common cultivars, widely reproduced via grafting, air layering and rarely by cuttings, 'Kyokko Yatsubusa', 'Akame', 'Brocade', 'Taihei', and many more. All are clonal, or cultivar names, they can not be reproduced from seed, as seedlings will always be genetic reassortment. To carry these names, they must be vegetatively reproduced.

Mikawa is a confusing name. It has been used as a clonal name, or cultivar name, which then should be put in single quotes, as above. But it also is a place name in Japan, and in bonsai refers to a landrace of JBP that share a tendency for having coarse, fissured bark. A land race, is a geographic population, or a geographic ecotype and as such can be reproduced by seed. When used as a land race name, no quote marks are needed. To make it clear, you would write Pinus thunbergii from Mikawa, or Pinus thunbergii Mikawa landrace, or Pinus thunbergii Mikawa ecotype. This is all a bit detailed, but you asked the question. It is fine to use shorthand in casual conversation, and skip some of the formality of the names system, but if possible, to make it clear to others, one should at least once in a thread, use the correct botanical name including the cultivar names if relevant or landrace, or ecotype information if relevant. After the first use of the formal name JBP is good enough in my book.

References:
the links for the "official lists of names" are found on this page of the RHS at Kew website.

somewhat similar to Kew, but focused only on USA is this list.
 

BuckeyeOne

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@Leo in N E Illinois Great explanation!! Thank you for taking the time to give such detail.

I understand the relationship of the plant being a clone to be a specific cultivar. We've discussed this before.
This is why I am suspect of vendors claiming their seeds to be a specific cultivar.

The reference to Mikawa is now better understood, as well as to the proper referral when in discussion.

So basically, any purchased JWP seeds are Pinus Thunbergii as they are not a graft, cutting or clone of the mother. Pinus Thunbergiana is invalid as you explained.

Thanks again!
 

Wires_Guy_wires

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So basically, any purchased JWP seeds are Pinus Thunbergii as they are not a graft, cutting or clone of the mother
Seeds are never a graft or cutting. They can be clones, but that can only be achieved by self-pollination, which is pretty near to impossible in pines. But it can be done with the right knowledge.
Grafts can bear seeds, and so can cuttings. They spread the genetics of the graft/cutting and not the understock.

Also, if you dig deep in Linnaeus' history.. You kind of start to think he was a pervert.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Seeds are never a graft or cutting. They can be clones, but that can only be achieved by self-pollination, which is pretty near to impossible in pines. But it can be done with the right knowledge.
Grafts can bear seeds, and so can cuttings. They spread the genetics of the graft/cutting and not the understock.

Also, if you dig deep in Linnaeus' history.. You kind of start to think he was a pervert.

True - Linnaeus was a man from a different era, a bit of a libertine.

For practical purposes, seeds are NEVER clones, even in the case of self pollination, there is genetic reassortment. In self pollination, in theory, a self pollinated seed can be up to 50% different from the parent. True in reality with normal outbred populations, seedlings may be around 75% similar to the parent, hence 25% different from the parent. We are not talking about line bred to be totally homozygous laboratory strains. So for practical purposes, if it came from seed it is never a clone, or cultivar. Even soybeans have some heterozygosity in their line bred strains. So leaving lab bred for science experiment races of Arabidopsiss (and similar botanical lab rat equivalent bred species) out of the discussion, seedlings are never cultivars or clones.

@BuckeyeOne
Yes, if someone is selling seed as a cultivar or clone, they are practicing deliberate fraud, or are not well educated. Given the frequency of fraud on ebay, I would assume such a vendor doing so could not be trusted at all with sales of anything. Buyer beware.

Now there is honesty when someone advertises seed as being from a cultivar or clone, for example, seedlings for sale of P. thunbergii ('Kotobuki' x 'Kotobuki') or seed open pollinated from 'Kotobuki', these will not be identical to 'Kotobuki' The statement that "these seedlings will not be identical to the parent, but may show some of the traits" if included in the text advertising the seed, then there is no fraud being intended. You can have some faith in the vendor because the vendor is being honest.

So I think you got it.
 

Brent

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@Leo in N E Illinois Great explanation!! Thank you for taking the time to give such detail.

I understand the relationship of the plant being a clone to be a specific cultivar. We've discussed this before.
This is why I am suspect of vendors claiming their seeds to be a specific cultivar.

The reference to Mikawa is now better understood, as well as to the proper referral when in discussion.

So basically, any purchased JWP (sic) seeds are Pinus Thunbergii as they are not a graft, cutting or clone of the mother. Pinus Thunbergiana is invalid as you explained.

Thanks again!

To confuse or clarify the situation a bit more, some seed strains are very pure, such as mikawa seeds coming from an isolated island. If this is true and the characteristics of all the seedlings are nearly identical, the seedling strain may be recognized and designated as var. Mikawa in fact is such a seedling strain and would be designated:
Pinus thunbergii var mikawa
Note that mikawa is not capitalized and not in single quotes.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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To confuse or clarify the situation a bit more, some seed strains are very pure, such as mikawa seeds coming from an isolated island. If this is true and the characteristics of all the seedlings are nearly identical, the seedling strain may be recognized and designated as var. Mikawa in fact is such a seedling strain and would be designated:
Pinus thunbergii var mikawa
Note that mikawa is not capitalized and not in single quotes.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com

Correct
sometimes called geographic race, ecotype, or land race,
 
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