Thunderhead BP-Need help with whorl carving

[Japonicus]

What about ground-layering around the graft union. I know layers are hit or miss (mostly miss) on JBP, but it is nice and swollen and could make for a pleasing base. Maybe use some fresh hormone (I hear it degrades easily), and plant it in the ground or a raised bed and let the top go crazy for a few years.

Not a bad idea if one was accustomed to such fancy work lol. I've not got air layering down yet. 2 failures and, well I'd probably go shopping
for a new tree 1st given my past record . I'm as inexperienced at layering as I am at grafting. Like a newby indeed.

 

[Japonicus]

I don't disagree with you on either point, but I think it is a best chance at a way forward with the tree. "Thunderhead" seem to be quite vigorous; It could be a fun project to grow out in the ground for a while to target a larger size tree and practice pruning, wiring and the implementation of sacrifice growth.

See, the place I got it, doesn't list it as a larger tree, and says it is a dwarf, and does well in small spaces. I really thought I'd done enough homework on this when I read that
and thought needle reduction would follow the species thunbergii it is said to be. Little did I know. They list it at 6' tall in 10 yrs.
Is that the failure here, misinformation? Or are there other traits that condemn this as a bonsai?

 

[Japonicus]

It would make a great garden tree.

Had I not chopped the hell out of it. hack hack cough cough. Hohum.

Sooooo Adair, what about the Banshosho I got off eBay last week. Is that a qualifying bonsai?
It too has a lousy graft, but easier to work, and no whorl. Much better stock, 1 year healed perhaps, small.

 

[Japonicus]

If carving use regular cut paste or grafting wax. With much growth of sacrifice branch/apex will come fast healing. Takes several years for rot to develop. Personally do not use except for fear of bleeding of pitch if done during growing time.

Thanks Potawatomi. I have a couple different types of paste/. Prefer the tube, it's very easy to use and more liquid initially.
Must be nice to be where you are for selection of material. Would have never thought Oregon to include a Zone 8 though. So close to 5. WOW!
Must get some wicked weather up there.

 

[Adair M]

Had I not chopped the hell out of it. hack hack cough cough. Hohum.

Sooooo Adair, what about the Banshosho I got off eBay last week. Is that a qualifying bonsai?
It too has a lousy graft, but easier to work, and no whorl. Much better stock, 1 year healed perhaps, small.

Soooo, what is a Banshosho? Can you post a picture?

 

[Japonicus]

Soooo, what is a Banshosho? Can you post a picture?

Oh dear, that didn't sound good. Well here goes. I've looked through my profile and settings, not sure how to post pics
as 3rd party hosting, or I mean how to update my account.
Here's the link to the sold item. May have to scroll its page a little
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Black-Pine-Banshosho-/292402380125?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=pRuRlHXi0qjGHJEL5UiaMf%2FGRwc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[Japonicus]

I told my wife when I unboxed this that I liked it a lot better than the thunderhead soon as I saw it
though the trunk is at best 1/4 the size. It looks more promising as a bonsai I think. One I'd rather work
for 20 yrs between the two.

Here's a link to one somebody is working
http://goldfishgarage.blogspot.com/2012/04/japanese-black-pine.html

 

[garywood]

Oh dear, that didn't sound good. Well here goes. I've looked through my profile and settings, not sure how to post pics
as 3rd party hosting, or I mean how to update my account.
Here's the link to the sold item. May have to scroll its page a little
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Black-Pine-Banshosho-/292402380125?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=pRuRlHXi0qjGHJEL5UiaMf%2FGRwc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

J, Banshosho thickens faster than the stock. That is a problem that only gets worse with time, nothing can "correct" the dissimilar growth rate.

 

[Japonicus]

J, Banshosho thickens faster than the stock. That is a problem that only gets worse with time, nothing can "correct" the dissimilar growth rate.

Hi Gary! Do you think then it should be layered just below the union? I was hoping wire turnicut at the right place or sharps lightly piercing the cambium layer over and over.
Is neither a possibility? I am set up to sell on eBay too lol.

 

[Adair M]

Why are you buying cultivars? They will all be grafted. All my JBP were started as seed.

 

[Japonicus]

Why are you buying cultivars? They will all be grafted. All my JBP were started as seed.

Ignorance is not bliss? Oh no. But really, I knew the graft was lousy. I saw the pics. The price was right my friend.
I got a little Christmas tip money, and it's Winter. Local nursery stock has not arrived, and when it does probably nothing good.
I looked all last year locally and came away empty handed all year.

I am however ignorant on the dissimilar growth rates Gary brought to the table.
I am ignorant on different thunbergii cultivars, such as the thunderhead.
The WP as my avatar is grafted to BP stock, and ya know, I don't like the graft.
I prefer un-grafted trees. I do not have the privilege of a bonsai nursery or club in my area,
so I need a good nursery to order from that would have 3-10 yr old seed stock...in my price range.
I have a blue atlas cedar, is grafted and I can't decide for a few more years if it will work or not.

The last tree I am shopping for this year is a Blue Atlas cedar, not sure on the Horstmann (grafted) variety.
Well maybe another BP or mugho. I have plenty to overwhelm me for potting up this year as is.

 

[Velodog2]

See, the place I got it, doesn't list it as a larger tree, and says it is a dwarf, and does well in small spaces. I really thought I'd done enough homework on this when I read that
and thought needle reduction would follow the species thunbergii it is said to be. Little did I know. They list it at 6' tall in 10 yrs.
Is that the failure here, misinformation? Or are there other traits that condemn this as a bonsai?

I have a thunderhead in my landscape and in some ways it is a dwarf, but a strange one. It mostly spreads rather than growing up. I’ve had it for probably fifteen years and it’s only a few feet tall, but maybe fifteen feet long. And although it doesn’t probably doesn’t grow as fast as a normal tree (I don’t have one to compare with) the growth it does have is very coarse. The needles are long, thick, and dense, the ends of “twigs” are thick as an index finger, and there are often a huge number of candles per branch end. So it becomes dense. Also it doesn’t grow tall because as thick as the twigs are they are rubbery and can’t support the weight of the dense needles, and so probably would not respond well to wiring. “Thunderhead” is an appropriate name as there is nothing delicate about it and if you have an appropriate location (I can’t see it in a small space) and time for it to develop in your yard it would likely be much more rewarding there than in a pot.

 

[Japonicus]

I have a thunderhead in my landscape and in some ways it is a dwarf, but a strange one. It mostly spreads rather than growing up. I’ve had it for probably fifteen years and it’s only a few feet tall, but maybe fifteen feet long. And although it doesn’t probably doesn’t grow as fast as a normal tree (I don’t have one to compare with) the growth it does have is very coarse. The needles are long, thick, and dense, the ends of “twigs” are thick as an index finger, and there are often a huge number of candles per branch end. So it becomes dense. Also it doesn’t grow tall because as thick as the twigs are they are rubbery and can’t support the weight of the dense needles, and so probably would not respond well to wiring. “Thunderhead” is an appropriate name as there is nothing delicate about it and if you have an appropriate location (I can’t see it in a small space) and time for it to develop in your yard it would likely be much more rewarding there than in a pot.

Nice. I appreciate you sharing your experience with the Thunderhead. I need to read a couple other threads on here about selection and
what pines are not good for bonsai. I encompassed all cultivars under the thunbergii umbrella as or near equal. Evidenced in above selections.

You know what? This is the 1st year, the bonsai fever has hit me in the Winter. That's the driving force of my ignorant choices.
And look now. I'm among a wealth of knowledge here, a gold mine, so I've lost nothing. I'm confident I will find good stock to work with.
Though I need to apply better husbandry skills to my current collection and learn more about what I do have...I still need to get proper stock
to work with for the long haul now...or years ago honestly. I feel like I'm 15 years behind where I should be in my collection.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Thanks Potawatomi. I have a couple different types of paste/. Prefer the tube, it's very easy to use and more liquid initially.
Must be nice to be where you are for selection of material. Would have never thought Oregon to include a Zone 8 though. So close to 5. WOW!
Must get some wicked weather up there.

Valley considered one of countries very best places for large variety of different trees. Just happened to be planted here by most beloved, esteemed and departed parents. In lifetime have seen from -13 to +112 degrees but usually not so extreme. Most painful are late hard freezing temps that kill trees in spring. Consider self most blessed in many ways. Your tree would soon outgrow chopping if planted out in yard as long as it survives. Three years you'd never know!

 

[Adair M]

Nice. I appreciate you sharing your experience with the Thunderhead. I need to read a couple other threads on here about selection and
what pines are not good for bonsai. I encompassed all cultivars under the thunbergii umbrella as or near equal. Evidenced in above selections.

You know what? This is the 1st year, the bonsai fever has hit me in the Winter. That's the driving force of my ignorant choices.
And look now. I'm among a wealth of knowledge here, a gold mine, so I've lost nothing. I'm confident I will find good stock to work with.
Though I need to apply better husbandry skills to my current collection and learn more about what I do have...I still need to get proper stock
to work with for the long haul now...or years ago honestly. I feel like I'm 15 years behind where I should be in my collection.

So approximately where do you live?

So, the way JBP are names can be one of two ways: one is a “cultivar”. These trees are grafts if the cultivar onto a stock tree. They will all be genetically identical. Each cultivar has specific characteristics that may or may not make it suitable for bonsai.

The other way JBP are names is based upon the area where the seeds were collected. That are grown and sold. The most famous of these is Mikawa, which is an Island in Japan. The seeds from trees from that island are supposed to have better bark, and shorter needles than seeds from other places. But, they won’t all be genetically identical.

The next thing you should know is there is a propagation method called “seedling cutting”. Trees grown using this procedure tend to have better root systems, and better branch structure than those that have not been processed.

Mark Comstock is a commercial nurseryman who makes seedling cutting JBP. I suggest you contact him to see what’s available. He should have some one and two year old seedling cuttings available. Maybe older ones, too. His prices are very reasonable.

 

[Japonicus]

So approximately where do you live?

So, the way JBP are names can be one of two ways: one is a “cultivar”. These trees are grafts if the cultivar onto a stock tree. They will all be genetically identical. Each cultivar has specific characteristics that may or may not make it suitable for bonsai.

The other way JBP are names is based upon the area where the seeds were collected. That are grown and sold. The most famous of these is Mikawa, which is an Island in Japan. The seeds from trees from that island are supposed to have better bark, and shorter needles than seeds from other places. But, they won’t all be genetically identical.

The next thing you should know is there is a propagation method called “seedling cutting”. Trees grown using this procedure tend to have better root systems, and better branch structure than those that have not been processed.

Mark Comstock is a commercial nurseryman who makes seedling cutting JBP. I suggest you contact him to see what’s available. He should have some one and two year old seedling cuttings available. Maybe older ones, too. His prices are very reasonable.

Good evening Adair. Just back from the grind stone/work-20.
I'm near Huntington. Where Ohio KY and WV come together. 3 hrs to Columbus, 2+ hrs to Lexington for bigger cities than Charleston.
A hop and skip to KY or OH. Had -18F 2 yrs ago, probably have bottomed out at -1 this Winter. Very muggy and oppressive Summers
highs mid 90's very common with high humidity, 105F extreme, but not as bad as Louisiana for oppressiveness.

I was hooking up with John Romano last Fall at New England Bonsai in Bellingham near Boston, where you can bring 2 or 3 Pines and their class will help you
with techniques for each tree. I was declined leave at work so missed that one. I could easily spend 2 hrs combing through their displays, tools
and offerings on a good to fast pace. I like NEB, and would make the drive for the class. Unsure of the new ownership however...don't know.

Back to your mention of Ryan Neil...I have watched his video on Pines, like Red,Black and White pines. I liked how the camera would
zoom in close for a best hands on you could get from a youtube video, but he's a bit fast paced, rapid fire question answer in that video
and just like the Bonsai Today Master Series - Pines, I follow, I understand, but when I go outside and approach MY trees, it seems like
it just all blurs, and I came away with a couple good points I can apply, out of many. So I'm scared to cut more, I'm scared to remove more needles.
I really need to take that class I think, to be more comfortable, more aggressive, more confident really is what I'm looking for I suppose.

Is Mark Comstock just on FB? Maybe a link? I found a thread here at BN searching for him https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/online-vendors-for-cheap-but-not-bad-pre-bonsai-stock.19947/

 

[Japonicus]

Seedling Cuttings. Boon Manakitivipart mentioned.
https://bonsaitonight.com/2011/07/01/how-to-create-seedling-cuttings-japanese-black-pine/

 

[jeanluc83]

You know what? This is the 1st year, the bonsai fever has hit me in the Winter. That's the driving force of my ignorant choices.
And look now. I'm among a wealth of knowledge here, a gold mine, so I've lost nothing. I'm confident I will find good stock to work with.

This is probably one of the best responses that I have ever read on this site from a newbie! Good job and keep at it. If you are willing to take advice and do the work on your end you will go far.

 

[Japonicus]

This is probably one of the best responses that I have ever read on this site from a newbie! Good job and keep at it. If you are willing to take advice and do the work on your end you will go far.

Thank you kindly jeanluc. I started keeping bonsai probably about the time you did '96-97, all Junipers (save for an olive, serissa, and boxwood
all of which did not survive my attempt at indoors) which did well for me. So outdoor bonsai is my friend, and I hope to be its'.
I certainly am a newbie at applying proper techniques to my Pines, Spruce (I think it is) and Cypress. I hope to learn things on my Junipers
that will make them rock here. Nothing extreme, but an increase in pride and appeal for sure.

In the last 2 years I've cut my shade trees down, and my front porch now receives more Sun than my trees and I care for.
I am gone till near Sun down frequently, and this has caused a stunting effect upon my trees. A lack of vitality.
The Quaking Aspen I cut down were out of control.I planted one bare root Aspen in '96 the size of an arrow.
Up till I cut them down and poisoned them, maybe still do from the root work, I have thousands of Aspen trees in a 1000 sq ft area.
Anywhere I want a shade tree, I just don't cut the grass. Straight Ky Midnight Blue grass hates the shade.

As far as taking advice, I will, but at my hobby level, so many different opinions and effective techniques, can also go a long way to confusion.
So yeh, a newbie in many ways indeed.
I have to sort out and add a dash of luck to every new technique I hear about. I do wish someone would make my boss understand,
that haste does make waste more often than not.

 

[jeanluc83]

No offense ment. I'll amend it to pine noobie.

It is just too often that people get bent out of shape when they are told valid criticism. It was refreshing to see someone take it graciously.

The hard part of learning bonsai on the internet is distinguishing the good from the bad info. Both get equal bandwidth. If you stick with reputable sources you are usually good.


For JBP listen to @Adair M . He will not stear you wrong. Jonas over at bonsai tonight has some great info. The best is finding someone in your area to learn from.