Tight space...my curse and my blessing

[Poink88]

Thought I would start a new thread based on the training pot thread.

As most of older members know, I have a big collection of stumps...much bigger that I should given the space I have (and my newbie status).

At first glance it looks like the space is limiting me but being a rosy glass wearer (as another member here calls me), I try to find the bright side of it and I did.

1. It helped me limit my collection to a manageable qty (relative). Though 150 seems a lot, I really have time for most of them still and they keep me busy enough to have something to do almost daily.

2. By trying to keep them in smaller pots (to minimize tree foot print), I learned a great lesson early on how important it is to have a compact root ball early. Roots are like branches, you need room for the ramification. Being hidden, "out of sight out of mind" usually kick in. As long as it fit the container (usually over sized for training) it is great! WRONG!!! When you repot that 3" tree with 4" spokes all around originally (not bad right?)...most of the new fine roots will be outside that 11" diameter. How shocking is that!?!?

As mentioned in the other thread, if it is needed, then go ahead and leave them longer but reduce them the first safe chance you get (possibly one at a time over the course of several years)....down to a few inches long stub if possible.

3. By trying to fit them in my space, I had to also chop the top really hard...make them as compact as possible. At first I also detested this but realized what a blessing it is. Some try to attain the finished silhouette right away not realizing that the final silhouette should be with the ramification...not the main and secondary branches. I've seen this too often that the final tree is out of proportion (very personal I know but some just use it as an excuse) because the planning was poor. Build your base properly...though it may look awful at first (skeleton), it will become nice once the muscles, meat, fat and skin is in place.

My mantra: Correct a fault ASAP. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to do and you might be stuck with it forever.

Just an observation of a newbie...who doesn't have a bonsai yet. Just sharing to fellow newbies (because old practitioners know this already).

 

[Anthony]

Dario,

I am not sure I understood all of that clearly, but my one watch-word would be -- proportion.

So for example, 1" trunk to 5" height - using a 3" trunk to 15" gives a heavy set masculine tree.
As you go shorter you go to sumo, and 1 or 2 sumo is fine. A whole collection?

I also wonder about the healing of wounds. Unless the tree / shrub has special abilities - cambium that just grows and covers, you could end up with a good many potential holes. Which could be very tiresome.

No problems with good root filled small cores from the start. We have been doing that for a while now, save to make it even more root filled, shifting to colanders and air-pot ideas.

As I said before, waiting to see when you open up the airspaces and expand the branches out.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

Proportion...great summary.

Re: wounds. It is part of my world since I am a tree collector and prefer big nursery trees. You may never understand why but that is my approach. I do admire your style of starting with seeds and small cuttings...it just isn't my way. Yours won't have the same problems but in the interest of saving time, that is something I have to sacrifice on. Good that I like carving and deadwood.

 

[GrimLore]

Proportion...great summary.

Re: wounds. It is part of my world since I am a tree collector and prefer big nursery trees. You may never understand why but that is my approach. I do admire your style of starting with seeds and small cuttings...it just isn't my way. Yours won't have the same problems but in the interest of saving time, that is something I have to sacrifice on. Good that I like carving and deadwood.

From now on you will be known as Sir Stumpy I needed to pack up more plant stuff today and found the tools. reposted in the tool section.

Grimmy

 

[Anthony]

Actually, Dario,

what I was wondering about was -

[a] wounds on trees that are normally free of such. The odd look.

Boredom setting in from so much work to do, wood hardeners, and filling, not really the carving bit. I am reflecting on all the other hobbies you listed and left behind.
I can admire other folks taller trees, but am practical when having to lift to repot.

I am a youthful 50, still mix concrete, plaster, build walls etc. fix cars from scratch, doing since I was 17 or so [ brakes, no problem ] but there are some pots here at 14 to 16",they weigh a ton, and the soil is mostly building gravel, very heavy.

Personally, I am glad, that one of us [ Uncle K.] is an oil painter, I like variety, and I am interested in seeing how you solve it all. More power to you.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Poink88]

Boredom setting in from so much work to do, wood hardeners, and filling, not really the carving bit. I am reflecting on all the other hobbies you listed and left behind.
I can admire other folks taller trees, but am practical when having to lift to repot.

Bonsai for some reason have a different hold on me. Maybe the fact that they are living being depending on me that I cannot just abandon? Could it because they grow and change? I am not sure.

Some hobbies also was left because of health issues. Woodturning for example was abandoned because of allergy. I love it and would do it again if not for the problems I had. I hope carving trees won't cause same problems though.

I try to limit the size of my trees but somehow the big ones just keep following me! I actually vowed to go with shohin sized trees (for the future) but it is not happening!

 

[edprocoat]

Actually, Dario,

what I was wondering about was -

[a] wounds on trees that are normally free of such. The odd look.

Boredom setting in from so much work to do, wood hardeners, and filling, not really the carving bit. I am reflecting on all the other hobbies you listed and left behind.
I can admire other folks taller trees, but am practical when having to lift to repot.

I am a youthful 50, still mix concrete, plaster, build walls etc. fix cars from scratch, doing since I was 17 or so [ brakes, no problem ] but there are some pots here at 14 to 16",they weigh a ton, and the soil is mostly building gravel, very heavy.

Personally, I am glad, that one of us [ Uncle K.] is an oil painter, I like variety, and I am interested in seeing how you solve it all. More power to you.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony, I was wonder ing what you said "Wounds on trees that are normally free of such." Do you mean trees kept as Bonsai, or trees in general? The reason I ask is I doubt I have ever seen any natural tree without a wound somewhere.

ed

 

[jkd2572]

Dario,
I'm currently adding a 24 foot bench that is 24inches wide in my grow out area. The fenced in grow out area will have 44 feet x 24 inches of benches. I can't wait to fill it up. The public viewing area in my back yard has 38 ft of bench area. I think I'm at my max space with 82 feet of benches. Im a big proponent of keeping things nice looking. It helps me to enjoy the hobby.
Here is example of back yard public viewable grow out bench. Multiples of these. The reason of this post is to show reasonable use of space I guess. The large 12 foot grow out area benches while labor intensive only cost me about $125 a piece to build. Not bad in my opinion.


Here is example of one of the 12 foot grow out area benches. This fenced In area is 30 feet by 12 feet. One wall does not have benches, but trash cans full of soil, racks with pots Ect. I now have very large pots 20x 18 or larger stacked between the legs of the benches.

 

[Poink88]

Jeremy,

Those sure look very nice... I am envious!

 

[jkd2572]

Just takes brainless cutting and screwing. The ones that you can't see the cinder blocks have cider block cores with Fence panels wrapped around them. All tops are not screwed down to legs. You can just lift the tops of and dolly the legs around if you need to move. Oh yeah I use I two pencils as the spacer between the top pieces of 2x2 goes pretty fast. Then I use a powdered ink drop line on both sides of the top to cut off straight if I get out of WAC. I always get out of WAC. Do this when done screwing in all the 2x2s.

 

[Neli]

Dario,
I could not agree with you more...about do it right the first time...not to waste time and have to cut it later or have a tree that will irritate you.
Jeremy,
I am in the process of building benches and display areas...and putting shade cloth over that...So far most have been temporary.
I use a concrete 4" plastic pine slit lengthwise both sides to make concrete poles with R6 round bar inside and a plastic dish to make the round parts on top.
This is my start for the display...I have not taken pictures of the grow out area...training pots yet, but is similar to yours...just the tops are not as nice...just long planks over the blocks.
This is when I just started them...I make them different height and arrange them. Why I like it is because I can still plant flowers under them.

Trying to improve on the mess I have all the time but slowly.

 

[Anthony]

Ed,

granted all trees, get damaged, the idea is to retain the qualities or at least enough of the qualities, that allows us to recognise a specific tree.
Wouldn't you agree?

I would suggest the example of our local ironwood, if damaged the tree regrows with thick cambium and then in large flakes, removes all traces of the damage.
A hollowed ironwood would look most unnatural, even if you claimed artistic licence.

Neli - a tease -

To do something correctly / thoroughly the first time, would require the experience of having done it before - hee hee
What would you use as a yardstick?
Have a great day
Anthony

 

[Cadillactaste]

Dario...you mentioned pruning the tops hard...will you have to do this each and every year? Won't there come a time...that what you have developed...you wish to keep in said style? Are you making provisions for that time to come?

 

[Nybonsai12]

The large 12 foot grow out area benches while labor intensive only cost me about $125 a piece to build. Not bad in my opinion.
View attachment 44522
View attachment 44523

Those are great looking benches and for $125 in material, I don't think that can be beat. Nice work.

 

[Poink88]

Dario...you mentioned pruning the tops hard...will you have to do this each and every year? Won't there come a time...that what you have developed...you wish to keep in said style? Are you making provisions for that time to come?

That is for initial treatment only. But as you develop the branches it is indeed a regular thing...grow and chop.

Often you see someone who tried to save a nice branch and develop nice ramification but it doesn't help the tree overall. It is better to sacrifice said "nice" branch early and develop the ramification at the right place. It takes vision though and as I said know that you are working with the skeleton at first which should be much smaller than the end result.

 

[Poink88]

My mantra: Correct a fault ASAP. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to do and you might be stuck with it forever.

Dario,
I could not agree with you more...about do it right the first time...not to waste time and have to cut it later or have a tree that will irritate you.

To do something correctly / thoroughly the first time, would require the experience of having done it before - hee hee
What would you use as a yardstick?

Anthony,

I wish there is a yardstick but there is none. I can only speak for myself but I do what I think is right at the moment fully aware that I can only address what I see/think/recognize as a problem.

My personal yardstick changes...and I am glad it does.

 

[Cadillactaste]

That is for initial treatment only. But as you develop the branches it is indeed a regular thing...grow and chop.

Often you see someone who tried to save a nice branch and develop nice ramification but it doesn't help the tree overall. It is better to sacrifice said "nice" branch early and develop the ramification at the right place. It takes vision though and as I said know that you are working with the skeleton at first which should be much smaller than the end result.

So...end result of finished product would then...once desired shape is there...would take up basically no more space then? Trying to grasp this chop method. Would you say there are times this isn't appropriate on a specific tree? Like take my Shohin Bougainvillea it is tiny...and I am trying to thicken the trunk as well grow out the branches. Which was advised for me to do. So said tree would not be a specimen for this chop method...correct?

 

[Poink88]

I'd share a story.

Early in my bonsai hobby I started watching youtube videos. I was instantly amazed by the yamadori materials being dug by Sebastijan Sandev (a student of Walter Pall). On one of his videos, he showed collecting a tree then pruning it. After a while I can't believe how he is butchering the tree and I thought he is destroying it. After he finished and showed the tree few months later, I understood the reason to the madness and it changed my view instantly.

I may never have any trees as nice as his, but I believe he (his bonsai videos) is the single biggest influence on my approach doing bonsai.

If you haven't checked his blog yet, it is a treasure trove and I highly recommend it...go back as far as 2008 and enjoy the ride, before you do prepare a towel or a bucket for the drool. LOL

http://sandevbonsai.blogspot.com/
http://www.yamadoriarea.blogspot.com/

Or watch his videos at...
http://www.youtube.com/user/SandevBonsai?feature=mhum

 

[Poink88]

So...end result of finished product would then...once desired shape is there...would take up basically no more space then? Trying to grasp this chop method. Would you say there are times this isn't appropriate on a specific tree? Like take my Shohin Bougainvillea it is tiny...and I am trying to thicken the trunk as well grow out the branches. Which was advised for me to do. So said tree would not be a specimen for this chop method...correct?

Of course there are always exceptions. If you are trying to thicken a tree, then maybe it is wise to let it be. I say maybe because I (being different) have a different approach. I still chop them and let them ramify. It is my belief (and I may be mistaken) that having more branches to feed the trunk results in faster thickening of it.

Observe reverse tapered trees...it is almost always due to multiple branches originating from same vicinity of the trunk. I take that knowledge and use it to my advantage but most will say I am mistaken. That is fine but I will do as I believe is right for MY trees.

Some trees do not backbud...those you do not chop right away (else you will have nothing but firewood). One possible approach is graft before you do.

There are other scenarios, so always think before you act.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Of course there are always exceptions. If you are trying to thicken a tree, then maybe it is wise to let it be. I say maybe because I (being different) have a different approach. I still chop them and let them ramify. It is my belief (and I may be mistaken) that having more branches to feed the trunk results in faster thickening of it.

Observe reverse tapered trees...it is almost always due to multiple branches originating from same vicinity of the trunk. I take that knowledge and use it to my advantage but most will say I am mistaken. That is fine but I will do as I believe is right for MY trees.

Some trees do not backbud...those you do not chop right away (else you will have nothing but firewood). One possible approach is graft before you do.

There are other scenarios, so always think before you act.

I see...I can see a tad of swelling on a part of my Bougie's trunk that once had a branch that was removed. A bulging in that area slightly. But...the trunk reminds me of the slanted Bougainvillea at the guest house in Honduras...so I can live with it since it has a similar profile in miniature form. It may bother others...but I never plan on showing. It's for my personal pleasure...and as you say...it is right for MY tree as well.