Timing for second cutting of JBP seedlings

Vic N

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The best suggestion I could give would be to make the second cutting 2-3 months before your winter dormant period, to allow the new roots time to harden off
 

bwaynef

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Everything I've seen, and been told, and done suggests that when the seedlings' stems turn purple is the earliest time to make the cuts.

I didn't read that you were asking about the 2nd cutting.
 

DirkvanDreven

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Dirk, just ask Sifu @Adair M , if he has the time. he will normally explain.
Good Day
Anthony
I expected and hoped for an answer from Mark Comstock @kingsville grower or @markyscott but iff @Adair M has knowledge about JBP Seedlings (as far as I know his trees they are a little further developed then seedlings) I very much value his opinion!
 

Vic N

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It seems like the first cutting is done in March, so my "guess"would be to try the second around June
 

RobertB

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I've never heard of a second cut. The seedlings are never cut a second time, at least in the same manner as the first.
 

RobertB

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Ok.. I seen the remember a thread in this a while back. Not sure why one would do it though.
 

DirkvanDreven

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markyscott

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Hi Dirk. I hadn’t responded because I’ve never done a second cutting of a seedling. In terms of timing the first cut, I found the typical recommendation of letting the stem go purple is not very reliable. I usually time the first cut by when the first true needles (not the cotelydons) start to extend. You’ll see a small bundle push up in the center of the seedling needles. If you cut when the seedling has only cotelydons, I’ve pretty much had zero percent success. If you wait too long (like waiting for the stem turns purple while the needles are maturing) I’ve had lower success also. But I can’t give you any info about a second cutting. I know Mark Comstock does it, but I never have. Hopefully we’ll all learn from this competition the reasoning behind different methods and understanding how to better time the seedling cuttings. I know enough to say that success rate is sensitive to timing.

Scott
 

DirkvanDreven

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Hi Dirk. I hadn’t responded because I’ve never done a second cutting of a seedling. In terms of timing the first cut, I found the typical recommendation of letting the stem go purple is not very reliable. I usually time the first cut by when the first true needles (not the cotelydons) start to extend. You’ll see a small bundle push up in the center of the seedling needles. If you cut when the seedling has only cotelydons, I’ve pretty much had zero percent success. If you wait too long (like waiting for the stem turns purple while the needles are maturing) I’ve had lower success also. But I can’t give you any info about a second cutting. I know Mark Comstock does it, but I never have. Hopefully we’ll all learn from this competition the reasoning behind different methods and understanding how to better time the seedling cuttings. I know enough to say that success rate is sensitive to timing.

Scott
Thanks for your reply Scott
I've been growing jbp from seeds for six years now. Until now I only cut the seedlings once. But if I look at the roots on the seedlings that Mark Comstock shows on his facebook page, seedlings that have been cut twice or even three times,that is a result I' ve never seen on my seedlings. Or on any seedlings!
So, with the ongoing competition I decided to try a second cutting on my seedlings. But can't find any clues regarding the timing of the second cutting.
I guess it's trial and error then!
 

jeanluc83

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The perfect time is ... wait for it ... after the first cutting.

It seems like the first cutting is done in March, so my "guess"would be to try the second around June
I'm going to be lucky to get my first cutting before June. I've still got about 3 weeks before I even plant seeds.

Mark is in my neck of the woods but he has green houses to start his seedlings in. I may have to make a trip over to talk to him about his process. He is only about a half hour away from me.
 

Vic N

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The perfect time is ... wait for it ... after the first cutting.



I'm going to be lucky to get my first cutting before June. I've still got about 3 weeks before I even plant seeds.

Mark is in my neck of the woods but he has green houses to start his seedlings in. I may have to make a trip over to talk to him about his process. He is only about a half hour away from me.
He definitely has a neat setup. I believe he starts seed in January with bottom heat. The first cutting goes by the color on the stem, but I don't know how the timing goes for the second (and even THIRD!) cuttings. I also don't know about the placement of the cuts after the first
 

Bonsai Nut

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I expected and hoped for an answer from Mark Comstock @kingsville grower or @markyscott but iff @Adair M has knowledge about JBP Seedlings (as far as I know his trees they are a little further developed then seedlings) I very much value his opinion!
@kingsville grower (Mark) is the expert in this area. I have seen his 3x cuttings and they are very interesting. I don't know how many years he has been experimenting with them - i.e. if he has enough history to tell if the 3x cutting process yields better results down the road than the 1x cutting process.

But they certainly look more interesting as seedlings!
 

River's Edge

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@kingsville grower (Mark) is the expert in this area. I have seen his 3x cuttings and they are very interesting. I don't know how many years he has been experimenting with them - i.e. if he has enough history to tell if the 3x cutting process yields better results down the road than the 1x cutting process.

But they certainly look more interesting as seedlings!
I did not respond initially because i have not been able to find written reference to the second and third cutting except to say it is done. I asked several professional growers and the only explanations i received were as follows.
1. Sometimes done again to improve results from first time.
Ie: shorter stem, better placement of spread.
2. Grower trying to create a new style.
The color change in the stem is not reliable timing as i have mentioned in several previous posts. The correct timing is when the second set of leaves have extended. Usually around 10 weeks after germination.
I have been doing the radial cut method for five years and have had good results. By that i mean the root spread and placement is better than average to begin with in the early stages however i believe it requires more labour and frequent management to prevent it from becoming unruly then the traditional root growth pattern. What it does do is develop a more compact root system faster for development of the tree using above ground methods.

I have recut seedlings a second time when i was transferring from the seedling flat to individual container. I did those that had very poor results after the first cut. The timing was not critical as the seedling and cuttings are all greenhouse housed and conditions controlled for growth cycle. The results were better the second time around for a few but not remarkably so. It is possible that the seedlings that did not respond well the first time around were not the strongest genetically. I have not bothered with a second cut on any of the subsequent crops.

For those who envision a radial root spread evenly distributed by the cutting process, the reality is not quite that clear cut. ( pun intended)
Pines readily produce roots above the cut. The roots still have a mind of their own with respect to direction.
Frequent repotting, trimming and rearranging is still required. i suggest a full bare root repot each year for the first three years to get the nebari in great shape for grow out. JBP are strong and vigorous as young trees and this is not a problem for them if done correctly. This process slows down the growth pattern but saves time in development over the long term. Using a colandar or pond basket helps but does not prevent root patterns that require correction.
I am currently repotting 154 four year old JBP that have been root pruned each year previously, as well as the container lifted and escaping roots cut part way through the growing season. These trees are requiring about 30 to 40 minutes work each this year to repot properly. A good reason to consider the number of seedlings you keep each year.
In summary i believe the radial root cutting can produce excellent results with attention to detail and frequent repotting. But then so can the traditional methods of airlayering, ground layering and root grafting. These are my observations based solely on the last five years of growing JBP with the radial cut method. I have attached a picture of one of the four year old JBP i recently repotted in a grow box.
 

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0soyoung

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So, on 25 January Mark posted to his FB timeline, "Potting up overwintered cuttings. If the root system is 360 degree then I pot them up,,,,,if they are not I make them into cuttings again."
On 30 January he posted, "This is what I do with the rejects" with pix of recutting rejects. (I see you asked him for his timing),

He has also mentioned that he is greenhouse growing with 70F bottom heat.


The quick answer is second cutting is at the time of repotting the 'first cuts'.


For those without a greenhouse, my thoughts are that the first cutting is probably coming this spring right after the first true needles have emerged. If so,
  1. repotting and second cutting could occur in August or thereabout (between the summer solstice and the fall equinox)
    • repotting and third cutting could occur spring 2019
  2. repotting and second cutting could be delayed until spring 2019
    • repotting and third cutting could occur spring 2020

Have fun, y'all!!
 
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