Tired of spending money on "pre-bonsai"

[drew33998]

Well, I have finally realized after several years of trying to buy sub-par material that I am ready to start purchasing material that is further along. Instead of buying a few trees at X dollars I want to buy one tree a year at X dollars that is further along and better material. While I do enjoy growing trees to become bonsai, the satisfaction of having a decent tree is not there for me and I realize with the material that I currently have it will be at least 5 years before I can be satisfied with putting it in a pot and refining the structure for show quality material or even something that I am satisfied with. Any suggestions on species? I would like to get a JBP, however I am not sure that would be suitable as I have never worked with the species. Thanks

 

[small trees]

This is a question you should be asking yourself, and I don't think you should confine yourself to a species before you start searching. If it's your one tree purchase per year, I think that you should just wait until you're struck by a tree and then assess your ability to work with said tree. Just my .02. You know Don has a lot of great stock if you do decide to look for one species exclusively.


Or to directly answer your question, a quality palmatum is always great to look at. See if you can buy one from Mach. Or a mugo from Vance, a trident from Smoke, any of BVF's trees...

 

[drew33998]

This is a question you should be asking yourself, and I don't think you should confine yourself to a species before you start searching. If it's your one tree purchase per year, I think that you should just wait until you're struck by a tree and then assess your ability to work with said tree. Just my .02. You know Don has a lot of great stock if you do decide to look for one species exclusively.


Or to directly answer your question, a quality palmatum is always great to look at. See if you can buy one from Mach. Or a mugo from Vance, a trident from Smoke, any of BVF's trees...

You are correct in your statement. However I still feel I need some help on assessing what value material would be suitable to skill level. Even though I have been in this hobby for several years, I definitely still consider myself very much a beginner. However I have decided that if I am to continue I not only have to invest in bettering myself, but also I am at a crossroads where I feel I need to move to more advanced material to take that next step. This next year I plan on going to as many shows as I can, taking workshops when available( taking one with Bill V January 16th on crape myrtles), studying more, and making that 45 min drive to my local club every 1st Monday of each month. Finally all that knowledge is meaningless unless you apply it to what you are doing.

 

[sorce]

I don't think most of those would live in florida.

Specially jBp.

GOOD idea though.

SORCE

 

[dick benbow]

I think your comments reflect a pretty natural progression for those wanting to advance in the hobby. At first in our learning curve we want to keep things alive. Then next step is better material. Somewhere toward the end of our advancement we become mesmerized by mother nature's yamadori types.
I don't want to sound too redundant for those who follow my posts, but think it's pnly natural
that we seek japanese species in our beginnings. I truely feel your missing the boat, by not investigating your local trees as great prospects. they're already aclimatized and many pines
follow already established japanese procedures. ( IE: White pine)
This hobby is a journey and not a destination, so along the way enjoy each step.

 

[small trees]

You are correct in your statement. However I still feel I need some help on assessing what value material would be suitable to skill level. Even though I have been in this hobby for several years, I definitely still consider myself very much a beginner. However I have decided that if I am to continue I not only have to invest in bettering myself, but also I am at a crossroads where I feel I need to move to more advanced material to take that next step. This next year I plan on going to as many shows as I can, taking workshops when available( taking one with Bill V January 16th on crape myrtles), studying more, and making that 45 min drive to my local club every 1st Monday of each month. Finally all that knowledge is meaningless unless you apply it to what you are doing.

Let me ask, and feel free to PM me if you want, how much you are currently spending on average per tree versus what you are looking to increase to. I am in a similar boat in terms of experience, but vastly inferior to you in terms of availability of local resources. I have sourced almost all of my trees from places other from either online or out-of-state nurseries. While I don't have the trees that a lot of members here have, I feel that I have trees with a lot of potential and I didn't spend an arm and a leg for most of them.

I don't think most of those would live in florida.

Specially jBp.

GOOD idea though.

SORCE

Which species other than JBP are you talking about?

 

[DougB]

Drew there are many bonsai nurseries and clubs in FL. Your best bet is to take advantage of your local bonsai club (I assume you are a member.) members and visit them and observe and talk about the various species they care for. This way you will observe many different trees and talk with someone who is caring for them. The also can inform you as to FL bonsai nurseries that only a local would know about. And of course you should also visit the nationally known folks in FL. Good luck and pic when you bring that special tree home.

 

[Vance Wood]

How about posting some pictures of your efforts so far. It may not be an issue of quality of material but result of work so far. I am not faulting your decision to step it up, material wise, but you don't want to be substituting $20.00 crapsai for $500.00 crapsai. Just make sure you are technically up to the challenge. I remember quite a few years ago there was someone else who went through this personal transformation, purchased a really nice piece of pre-bonsai and turned it into a very expensive crapsai. We called this reverse styling.

 

[drew33998]

How about posting some pictures of your efforts so far. It may not be an issue of quality of material but result of work so far. I am not faulting your decision to step it up, material wise, but you don't want to be substituting $20.00 crapsai for $500.00 crapsai. Just make sure you are technically up to the challenge. I remember quite a few years ago there was someone else who went through this personal transformation, purchased a really nice piece of pre-bonsai and turned it into a very expensive crapsai. We called this reverse styling.

Great advice Vance. That is exactly what I don't want to do. I did post something in the flowering section recently. Most of the material that I have I feel would fall into the category of this tree. I am thinking to myself, should I be wasting time on these? Even if I was at a higher skill level, would the outcome be worth the effort? I collected some incredible parsons junipers last season, which I rushed and neither made it, of course I had a few junipers that I collected that I felt were settled in so to speak that also died last season. I didn't change anything in my routine of care. I did treat them 2-3 times for spider mites last season as they were showing signs. Probably a little too much info at once so lets start with dissecting the azalea if you don't mind. The actual material, my work, and then finally what you would do/have done. Thanks again.

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?17628-Duc-De-Rohan-Azalea

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

First, moving away from Home Depot-type nursery stock to actual bonsai stock will positively represent a quantum leap forward in your bonsai journey. Maybe not a popular statement, fine, but it's absolutely true...bravo.

Second, grow what grows in your area. Trident maples and JBP will thrive in North FL...I'd begin with one of those two species. They're forgiving and should retain their value. If you want an opinion about a particular piece of stock, I'm happy to offer one...I get regular requests for this and am always glad to help.

Third, yes, continue to study and attend workshops to invest in your training. I don't know if you're closer to Destin or closer to JAX, but you're always welcome to attend meetings, workshops, or just help out in Bham. It takes us 4-4.5 hours to get to Panama City.

I'm starting a 4-session Beginning Bonsai course on 1/24. It's a mix of presentation and hands-on, 4 full-day sessions of seasonal work on my trees and yours; in January, February, March, and May in my garden and garage. I believe there are a couple spots left out of 7. PM me for details.

 

[jeanluc83]

I don't think most of those would live in florida.

Specially jBp.

GOOD idea though.

SORCE

I can't say it definitively but everything I've read says that JBP grow quite well in Florida.

 

[Adair M]

Japanese BLACK pine will thrive in the Jacksonville area. White pine and Mugo will not.

 

[drew33998]

First, moving away from Home Depot-type nursery stock to actual bonsai stock will positively represent a quantum leap forward in your bonsai journey. Maybe not a popular statement, fine, but it's absolutely true...bravo.

Second, grow what grows in your area. Trident maples and JBP will thrive in North FL...I'd begin with one of those two species. They're forgiving and should retain their value. If you want an opinion about a particular piece of stock, I'm happy to offer one...I get regular requests for this and am always glad to help.

Third, yes, continue to study and attend workshops to invest in your training. I don't know if you're closer to Destin or closer to JAX, but you're always welcome to attend meetings, workshops, or just help out in Bham. It takes us 4-4.5 hours to get to Panama City.

I'm starting a 4-session Beginning Bonsai course on 1/24. It's a mix of presentation and hands-on, 4 full-day sessions of seasonal work on my trees and yours; in January, February, March, and May in my garden and garage. I believe there are a couple spots left out of 7. PM me for details.

Actually in Jax. Just changed my location.

 

[Dav4]

I agree with everything Brian said in his post. Forcing yourself to acquire stock that's more advanced in development/complexity then you're used to may set you back a bit more financially, but it tends to up your game as an artist/horticulturalist, re-investing yourself at a higher level in the hobby then you were previously. I personally would have left the hobby over a decade ago if I had continued with the stock I initially worked with way back at the beginning. As far as what stock to acquire, I think Brian's advice is right on the mark again...JBP and tridents will do well in N. FL., as will crape myrtles and certain junipers, like Parsons, and perhaps procumbens...not sure about shimpaku. FWIW, collecting landscape junipers can be quite tricky, so I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about the losses last year. As you learned, one of the keys is post collection treatment...no work until they are clearly recovered and growing well- usually at least a 2 to 3 year wait. I think you need to make another trip up to Plant City Bonsai this spring, too...

 

[mat]

Kawa Bonsai's winter show is in a couple of weeks in Flagler County. They have some great headliners this year - William Valvanis, Ted Matson, etc.

There will be multiple vendors there with tons of stuff for sale. 15 bucks gets you in the door; for that you get to see the (always nice) exhibit, several demonstrations and the vendors' area - real pre-bonsai, 'finished' trees, pots, tools, raffles, etc. I highly recommend checking it out. I can't make it this year as I'll be digging cypress at Adam's Ranch (don't tell Ed).

http://kawabonsai.com/january-2015-joy-of-bonsai-shohin/


Also, about 2 hours South of you is Jason Schley's nursery. After a few visits there, you'd probably never look around Home Depot for bonsai material again.

 

[Poink88]

How about posting some pictures of your efforts so far. It may not be an issue of quality of material but result of work so far. I am not faulting your decision to step it up, material wise, but you don't want to be substituting $20.00 crapsai for $500.00 crapsai. Just make sure you are technically up to the challenge. I remember quite a few years ago there was someone else who went through this personal transformation, purchased a really nice piece of pre-bonsai and turned it into a very expensive crapsai. We called this reverse styling.

I agree...it is so easy to blame the plant's shortcomings, when in truth, it is us who is lacking.

Good material is no question better to work on but it is only part of the equation. Real question is, are you ready for it? As long as the expectation is realistic then go for it.

BTW, there are lots of free and/or cheap good materials out there...you just need to know;
1. what to look for,
2. where to look, and
3. when.

Often we are tunnel visioned w/ Japanese bonsai species (as mentioned above) that we overlook what is around us. Open your eyes and mind and you will see lots of great materials around you (for a lot less $$$ too).

BTW, all imperfections or problems are opportunities for you to learn how to fix. Practice makes perfect-- still applies.

Good luck!

 

[Nybonsai12]

I was in the same boat as OP, went out and bought an expensive black pine that I killed in six months. It was my first finished tree and I didn't know what the hell I was doing. BUT, it changed me. I learned what I did wrong, why it was wrong and what to do right. In essence it made me step up my game from noob to slightly more knowledgable noob. And the process continues. Of course I wish I learned ahead of time so my advice to you would be to make sure you know how to care for the species you decide on. Sounds like you already have a handle on that aspect.

I still have the stump from the pine I killed. I toss it around my yard and stumble upon it every so often. Good reminder that even though it's dead, I improved from it. You will too.

 

[Vin]

I've always looked at "pre-bonsai" as just a label put on a tree by the seller. Every bonsai started as a seed at some point. I'm sure I'll continue to buy both nursery stock and pre-bonsai in the future but I look at every tree for possibilities no matter the origin.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Vin's thread about spending $5000 on a tree did bring to mind an idea that applies to your original post. http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?17631-5-000-to-Spend-On-One-Tree

I think I am going to look at my collection of 75+ sticks in pots, and take note of which ones I have the horticulture really figured out, they would be my longer term survivors. And the ones that are growing best for me, making progress. I'll turn 60 years old next month, and even optimistically I don't have much more than 30 to 40 years of bonsai left in me, more likely less. I would like to have some show quality trees to work on. I really do need to stop acquiring young stuff, and pick up one or two trees that have the first 20 to 30 years of development out of the way. I think my goal for 2015 and on, will be to find "the one" or maybe a couple more developed trees. If I am going to lay down big bucks, it will have to be a species I know how to handle. A species I think I am relatively successful with. I did pick up a 9 year old from grafting JWP, and think it could quickly become a show worthy tree. I will have to stick with this, and remind myself, having more sticks in pots is not going to help me towards the goal of having a couple show quality trees. By show quality, I do mean good enough for local shows, without being embarrassed, not necessarily award winners, though I will try for award quality, it is a high standard well worth shooting for.

 

[sorce]

Sorry. I thought Anthony was the only one keeping jbp so far south.
Mugo. Heard not far as GA.

Trident would be nice.

But down yonder. I'd be into BC.

Watch Out for crocs!

Sorce