To Buy or Not to Buy that is the Question

[Paradox]

So what criteria to folks here consider when buying trees for potential bonsai? What is an absolute no no, beyond an obviously half dead tree. Where is your balance between what you think the potential of the tree is and cost?

It seems rather difficult at times to find really good potential bonsai (at least for upright styles especially in pines) at nurseries simply because the just aren't normally developed for that in mind. Box stores such as Home Depot are even harder because mos of their stuff is smaller (younger) material aimed at being less expensive than nurseries that tend to charge more. Not that you can't get lucky sometimes. I have a couple of maples with potential I bought at Home Depot that sthe graft is very well done and hardly noticable. In fact, whomever their supplier is, knows their stuff because the grafts are always matched in size and smooth. I've seen worse at some "professional" nurseries.

I ask because, I'm curious as to what people look for and how it compares to my own criteria.

Also I found a green leaf lace maple at a local place that would make a very nice tree if I air layered the top off of it, but at some point it was tied to a stake when it was younger and the flagging tape used to tie it has grown into the bark on the part of the tree I would be saving. I didn't buy it because I'm not sure if that can be fixed or if the effort to do so would damage the tree to the point where the scarring would ruin it. Its also in my mind a tad pricey for a pre bonsai but that I am not opposed to spending it if the tree truely would make a nice bonsai in the future.

Sorry for the length of the post just would like to know people's thoughts
Thanks

 

[Paradox]

I will add that when I look for trees for pre bonsai, I look for something that's healthy, with good trunk development, nice shape, a decent nebari or 2 or 3, managable size, good potential branching structure and generally less than $100, but if it has real potential (lots of the aforementioned features) I'm flexible on cost.

 

[rockm]

I don't look at big box stores for material. The stuff there is - in 99 percent of the cases - useless.

Older, established nurseries are my source for nursery-grown potential bonsai, but Nursery-grown material is a crap shoot. I have far far greater success with purpose-grown material from bonsai nurseries. You get more bang for the buck at bonsai nurseries, even reputable online bonsai nurseries.

That said, at older landscape nurseries decent raw stock can be found--if you know how and where to look. Species, trunk caliper and branching isn't much of a concern as character in the lower third of the trunk. That is what to look for, not really big trunks. If a tree has some movement, mature bark on the first foot or two and decent nebari it's a candidate. It takes a lot of looking to find decent material worth buying.

For instance, I saw an 8 foot bald cypress at an older landscape nursery tucked back in a corner of an older landscape nursery eight or so years ago and had made a mental note of it. It was priced at $60 then in a 8 inch pot. I returned this spring, it was still there in its 8 inch pot, but its roots had long escaped the pot into the ground underneath. The trunk had developed decent flare and nebari as a result and it was 25 feet tall. The nurseryman said it was still $60, even though it was as tall and bigger in the trunk than a $400 tree in a 15" pot next to it. It was still priced by pot size, not tree size. It's that kind of thing that is a deal to me, even though I had to spend over an hour helping to get it out of the ground with an ax. I trunk chopped it immediately after it was dug out.

That kind of tree is terrific, but they're not common...

 

[Paradox]

Thanks for the response.
I agree 99% of stuff at box stores is useless but I do look if I'm there just in case I get lucky. Very rarely happens but it does happen.
Even at nurseries, its very hard to find something. In the last year, I've looked at literally 1000s of trees. I bought 4 I thought had potential and 2 just to mess around with those species. Also, I don't really have the equipment or ability to move around a tree in the 8 or 10 foot+ tall category so I don't pay much attention to those. Also if I wait for the absolute perfect tree, I won't have anything to work on and thus won't learn.

 

[rockm]

You don't need special equipment to move larger trees, because you don't move all of the tree out of the nursery. I trunk chopped the bald cypress at the nursery to four feet. I told the guys helping me remove it that I was going to chop 13 feet of it off immediately. They laughed, looked at me strangely and handed me a saw. I hacked it to a moveable size.

The BEST material in older nurseries is the larger stuff. Most great material at those nurseries is on the larger side because it is older. That's why I go to older nurseries to look. Saplings and seedlings at nurseries aren't really worth the trouble...Larger material is entirely manageable as you make it smaller...

 

[milehigh_7]

You don't need special equipment to move larger trees, because you don't move all of the tree out of the nursery. I trunk chopped the bald cypress at the nursery to four feet. I told the guys helping me remove it that I was going to chop 13 feet of it off immediately. They laughed, looked at me strangely and handed me a saw. I hacked it to a moveable size.

The BEST material in older nurseries is the larger stuff. Most great material at those nurseries is on the larger side because it is older. That's why I go to older nurseries to look. Saplings and seedlings at nurseries aren't really worth the trouble...Larger material is entirely manageable as you make it smaller...

Did the same thing not long ago with a 6' boog that I got for $2 (I picked up 5 Barbara Karst for $2 each)

 

[Poink88]

You don't need special equipment to move larger trees, because you don't move all of the tree out of the nursery. I trunk chopped the bald cypress at the nursery to four feet. I told the guys helping me remove it that I was going to chop 13 feet of it off immediately. They laughed, looked at me strangely and handed me a saw. I hacked it to a moveable size.

The BEST material in older nurseries is the larger stuff. Most great material at those nurseries is on the larger side because it is older. That's why I go to older nurseries to look. Saplings and seedlings at nurseries aren't really worth the trouble...Larger material is entirely manageable as you make it smaller...

This is exactly how I do it. I bring my own saw and lopper though .

 

[Poink88]

BTW, I believe my best trees are free and are mostly collected old hedges slated to be removed/killed for new landscape. I just got 2 yaupon holly last night. Most are around 20-30 years old and I am still hoping to find better and older ones.

 

[rockm]

"I bring my own saw and lopper though"

It can be an iffy proposition walking into a nursery armed with that equipment

"BTW, I believe my best trees are free and are mostly collected old hedges slated to be removed/killed for new landscape"

True, but this can be a hit and miss thing, though. I've seen big 5 foot high boxwood hedges that were all 1/4 stems and others with eight inch diameter individual trunks. You never know which it's going to be until you start parting the branches and looking inside.

Some of the homes in this area have boxwood allees that are over 200 years old and are potential gold mines for material. Most of the excellent stuff is on historic sites though.

I've posted this photo before, but it shows what CAN come up at older homes. It and about 75 more are out at George Mason's house Gunston Hall about seven miles from me.

http://www.gunstonhall.org/grounds/landscape_features/boxwood_allee_lg.jpg

 

[Poink88]

"It can be an iffy proposition walking into a nursery armed with that equipment "

"True, but this can be a hit and miss thing, though. I've seen big 5 foot high boxwood hedges that were all 1/4 stems and others with eight inch diameter individual trunks. You never know which it's going to be until you start parting the branches and looking inside."

LOL...the tools stay inside my car until a purchase is done.
Do not discount the 1/4" branched looking boxwood hedges. My better ones actually looked like that until I dug and exposed the hidden/buried trunk and nebari.

 

[jkd2572]

Yup. I dug up a box wood last year with a 1 inch trunk. By the time I got down to the buried part it went down to a 4 inch base.

 

[mat]

Visiting a couple of real bonsai nurseries cured me of the habit of trying to get lucky at a big box store.

 

[edprocoat]

On this topic I was just in home depot for some material for a job tommorrow, although its supposed to rain which will put it off till next weekend, I went over to the garden center just looking as I have 15 Bonsai now. I noticed this boxwood for $34.99 in a 3 gallon nursery container shaped like a short christmas tree. Its maybe 2 1/2 feet tall and a little wider than the pot all around and new green growth everywhere. The trunk was the kicker though, easliy 3 inches wide maybe a little over that and the only one like it, it went up about 5 inches from the soil and into a mass of growth after splitting into 2 major trunks. I started to stick my fingers into the soil to see if I could feel any roots and too my surprise the soil was loosely packed and I got my fingers a few inches into the soil feeling just trunk. I just dropped $1100.00 bucks on material and did not have the extra to pick it up, so I moved it back in the midst of the others hoping it will be there later. The last two times I tried this method of tree preservation they were gone the next day. This will have to be there until the monday after next before I can afford to plunk down any money besides that which keeps the bill collectors at bay. Thats usually the way my luck runs when finding nice stuff at the big box stores.

ed

 

[Dan W.]

Paradox, you mentioned pines...I would be a lot more careful about big trunk chops on the pines. Make sure you pick something with a lot of low branches and only chop above, leaving plenty of branching/needles below.

I'm sure there are a lot of nice bonsai nurseries out your way. That's probably the way to go for great material that matches your criteria.

 

[fore]

"I bring my own saw and lopper though"

It can be an iffy proposition walking into a nursery armed with that equipment

"BTW, I believe my best trees are free and are mostly collected old hedges slated to be removed/killed for new landscape"

True, but this can be a hit and miss thing, though. I've seen big 5 foot high boxwood hedges that were all 1/4 stems and others with eight inch diameter individual trunks. You never know which it's going to be until you start parting the branches and looking inside.

Some of the homes in this area have boxwood allees that are over 200 years old and are potential gold mines for material. Most of the excellent stuff is on historic sites though.

I've posted this photo before, but it shows what CAN come up at older homes. It and about 75 more are out at George Mason's house Gunston Hall about seven miles from me.

http://www.gunstonhall.org/grounds/landscape_features/boxwood_allee_lg.jpg

Those are the largest boxwoods I've ever seen! Incredible.

 

[gergwebber]

I disagree with the box store theory. When most of a "block" of plants sells out, the few remaining plants go on sale at ~50-80% off in the "reduced rack". it could be a 1gallon cotoneaster, 15 gallon maple, (a cool dwarf rhodie i saw the other day and wanted to bring home but didn't,) orchids, 5 gal junipers......... they may be hopped up on synthetic fertilizer and raised in an entirely differently climate, but give them a chance they are headed for the dumpster, and at discount prices.....

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I disagree with the box store theory. When most of a "block" of plants sells out, the few remaining plants go on sale at ~50-80% off in the "reduced rack". it could be a 1gallon cotoneaster, 15 gallon maple, (a cool dwarf rhodie i saw the other day and wanted to bring home but didn't,) orchids, 5 gal junipers......... they may be hopped up on synthetic fertilizer and raised in an entirely differently climate, but give them a chance they are headed for the dumpster, and at discount prices.....

You'll find plenty of people on both sides of this issue...and this debate will heat up instantly. Rather than reignite the flames here, search the forums for bonsai created from nursery stock trees, its an "all you can eat" buffet. Then create new threads of bonsai you've made from nursery stock to share successes you've had.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

So what criteria to folks here consider when buying trees for potential bonsai? What is an absolute no no, beyond an obviously half dead tree. Where is your balance between what you think the potential of the tree is and cost?

It seems rather difficult at times to find really good potential bonsai (at least for upright styles especially in pines) at nurseries simply because the just aren't normally developed for that in mind. Box stores such as Home Depot are even harder because mos of their stuff is smaller (younger) material aimed at being less expensive than nurseries that tend to charge more. Not that you can't get lucky sometimes. I have a couple of maples with potential I bought at Home Depot that sthe graft is very well done and hardly noticable. In fact, whomever their supplier is, knows their stuff because the grafts are always matched in size and smooth. I've seen worse at some "professional" nurseries.

I ask because, I'm curious as to what people look for and how it compares to my own criteria.

Also I found a green leaf lace maple at a local place that would make a very nice tree if I air layered the top off of it, but at some point it was tied to a stake when it was younger and the flagging tape used to tie it has grown into the bark on the part of the tree I would be saving. I didn't buy it because I'm not sure if that can be fixed or if the effort to do so would damage the tree to the point where the scarring would ruin it. Its also in my mind a tad pricey for a pre bonsai but that I am not opposed to spending it if the tree truely would make a nice bonsai in the future.

Sorry for the length of the post just would like to know people's thoughts
Thanks

My $.02 on selecting bonsai candidates is here.

 

[Smoke]

When I am looking for a piece of material, it has to have value.

That value may be trunk line, large base, good nebari, or branches in a usefull place. (many of the attributes, NOT FOUND AT NURSERIES OR BOX STORES)

When the value is found then it is worth the asking price. Sometimes the asking price is within my budget. Sometimes it is not.

The bigger ones budget is for purchasing bonsai material, the better the material one can purchase.

This is economics 101. If ones budget is more akin to purchasing material at Home Depot, then one can only expect to have home depot trees in the future.

I recently purchased this large juniper at the Fresno Bonsai Societies spring exhibit last weekend. Treecutter recently showed a pic or two. This juniper was a demo tree worked on during the exhibit. It was decided to use it as a silent auction piece and I had the final winning bid.

The tree stands about 30 inches tall, and the trunk is about 1.75 inches across. It came in the pot. What attracted me is the trunk line. not the typical procumbens wrapped around a stake, but a more subtle twuist that may lend itself to removing a spral strip and sowing a twisting exposed shari look.

winning bid....$140.00 Pretty cheap for the possibility of being a possible show piece of a newbies budding collection.

 

[rockm]

"Those are the largest boxwoods I've ever seen! Incredible."

Believe it or not, these are a DWARF cultivar. They're 250 years old or so. They're not nearly as big as some of the "normal" cultivars in some hedges and allees here.