To cut or not to cut this field growing pine

[Bonsai_Bentley]

Bought this tree recently and finally got a chance to really dig into it. On thing I'm not really liking is this stub the grower created. Worried about inverse taper forming. I plan on planting the grow bag it's in now and leaving it in the ground for at least another growing season. Should I go ahead and prune off the branch growing on this stub to prevent further swelling? I'm also thinking about wiring the structural branches out to gain photosynthetic efficiency.

 

[sorce]

Seems there's more lost up there than that.

I'd bring it back down to the lower low branches for a future final.

Sorce

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

Seems there's more lost up there than that.

I'd bring it back down to the lower low branches for a future final.

Sorce

Sorry, I meant should I cut the branch growing off to the left of the stub and then continue the leader that's going off to the right as a sacrifice. Then at some point in the future wedge cut a couple of inches or so below the stub on the right side of the trunk to put movement into it. Right now the trunk is too straight.

 

[Tieball]

Hmmm...I looked at the photos but am really not sure what you want to keep and what you want to remove. What your trunk line thoughts/plans are really. Not clear to me. Maybe I’m just confused though.

 

[Tieball]

I think you could do a wedge cut if you’re willing to throw the tree away when it doesn’t work....or simply chop it at the lowest branches now and regrow the tree....but I don’t know if chopping on this type of tree is a good idea or not. A wedge on one side sounds okay on the surface...but...on the opposite side of that wedge the tree fibers, core, bark and all have to stretch a lot when you make that bend to close the wedge. It breaks things apart that might not heal.

IF the tree could take a chopping (pine experts need to comment on that) I’d chop to that lowest branch way way down, plant the tree on a strong angle, and begin a new tree. IF a chop was good.

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

I think you could do a wedge cut if you’re willing to throw the tree away when it doesn’t work....or simply chop it at the lowest branches now and regrow the tree....but I don’t know if chopping on this type of tree is a good idea or not. A wedge on one side sounds okay on the surface...but...on the opposite side of that wedge the tree fibers, core, bark and all have to stretch a lot when you make that bend to close the wedge. It breaks things apart that might not heal.

IF the tree could take a chopping (pine experts need to comment on that) I’d chop to that lowest branch way way down, plant the tree on a strong angle, and begin a new tree. IF a chop was good.

Sorry, I'm doing a horrible job explaining myself lol. In this pic the red is where I'd make the prune off of the stub to stop swelling/thickening of that stub. Yellow line shows the current leader which may or may not keep going in that direction. The purple is the proposed wedge site (althought the wedge won't be that large), but that won't be until well into the future. Like a year after it's been potted.

Wedge cuts on pines is fairly common as far as I know. That in no way means that I'll actually be successful with it lol, but I'm willing to give it a shot. If it doesn't work I end up with a super squatty tree and rebuild from there.

 

[Adair M]

Yes, that stub is way too large.

 

[sorce]

You are explaining yourself fine.

I'm just trying to get you to realize the potential that you have lower.

Sure, you're adding a lot of time onto your project, but the end result will be that much better as well.


You will NEVER be able to fix the proportions that are wrong above here.

Sorce

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

Yes, that stub is way too large.

Right, idk what they were thinking, but it's all good. I may need to use it as an anchor point for rebar or something. I'll cut it more flush and heal it over when the time comes....however, I do wonder if I can develop the branch connected to the stub and just improve the transition of taper. That would call for removing the branch on the opposite side of that stub.

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

You are explaining yourself fine.

I'm just trying to get you to realize the potential that you have lower.

Sure, you're adding a lot of time onto your project, but the end result will be that much better as well.
View attachment 267699

You will NEVER be able to fix the proportions that are wrong above here.

Sorce

Ah, I see. Yes, that's my fallback should the wedge cut fail. That is an interesting route though.

 

[namnhi]

That is the problem with field grown material. Huge trunk but not much else that is usable.
You going to have to cut that off and start with one of the lower branch as a new leader.

 

[sorce]

You should probly choose a couple shoots down there to designate energy to before the roundabout blows it up all the way around.

Consider the front, and look for the 2 best "up and down" shoots to keep, up your continuation, and down your first branch.

Seems you could chose a first branch from the bottom and a continuation from the top of those 2 low whorls,or maybe better, both from the lower whorl.

But that type of reduction is the looking into material that we should be doing IMO...

As a group, we have been trying to hard to "use everything", that will lead to very mediocre to shitty trees.

The best trees are going to happen when we use our...

Faster Further Future Vision.

We gotta see the one good tree quicker, and have the knowledge and guts to go straight there.

Sorce

 

[Tieball]

@sorce Yup...this is very true: “ We gotta see the one good tree quicker, and have the knowledge and guts to go straight there.” And is something I need to practice also.

 

[sorce]

@sorce Yup...this is very true: “ We gotta see the one good tree quicker, and have the knowledge and guts to go straight there.” And is something I need to practice also.

Of course by "straight" there.. I mean, in our minds and slowly physically, as health allows.
That'd be the "knowledge".

"Straight there" as in this case, and with any "plan b" low branches, keeping their potential problems (bulge) limited, should definitely be addressed first.

Shout out to @garywood for the idea of keeping potential problems at bay. This remains the heart of a great long term plan.

Narrowing them down as soon as possible, with as much future vision as possible.

Sorce

 

[Potawatomi13]

I think you could do a wedge cut if you’re willing to throw the tree away when it doesn’t work....or simply chop it at the lowest branches now and regrow the tree....but I don’t know if chopping on this type of tree is a good idea or not. A wedge on one side sounds okay on the surface...but...on the opposite side of that wedge the tree fibers, core, bark and all have to stretch a lot when you make that bend to close the wedge. It breaks things apart that might not heal.

IF the tree could take a chopping (pine experts need to comment on that) I’d chop to that lowest branch way way down, plant the tree on a strong angle, and begin a new tree. IF a chop was good.

See Mirai Live "Advanced Trunk Bending" Believe this was the stream. If he can do so can we,

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

See Mirai Live "Advanced Trunk Bending" Believe this was the stream. If he can do so can we,

Ryan gives me all the confidence I need!!!

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

You should probly choose a couple shoots down there to designate energy to before the roundabout blows it up all the way around.
Consider the front, and look for the 2 best "up and down" shoots to keep, up your continuation, and down your first branch.
Seems you could chose a first branch from the bottom and a continuation from the top of those 2 low whorls,or maybe better, both from the lower whorl.
But that type of reduction is the looking into material that we should be doing IMO...
As a group, we have been trying to hard to "use everything", that will lead to very mediocre to shitty trees.
The best trees are going to happen when we use our...
Faster Further Future Vision.
We gotta see the one good tree quicker, and have the knowledge and guts to go straight there.

Sorce

Nah, I hear you man. I just can't help feeling that going that route is a cop-out.....and by that what I really mean is that this is a shitty piece of material that I shouldn't have bought and therefore I want to try my hand at doing a wedge cut on it as a learning experience lol. If that fails I can then "hopefully" cut back to where you were saying. Even if it doesn't fail, but looks like buttocks I can still cut back to that location I guess.

My initial post was made before I REALLY REALLY got into the tree. Took a deeper dive last night and realized that there's just too much going on at the top. I'll leave the tree alone for now to allow it to survive the winter, but at some point next year I'll likely make the following cuts. Wedge would actually be more oriented towards the back from this view taking the movement away from you. Leader would be wired to be more vertically oriented and serve as a sacrifice. Thoughts on this crappy route?

I think I'll name this guy "2nd Best" as I'm shooting for the second best possible outcome for this dude.

 

[sorce]

just can't help feeling that going that route is a cop-out.....and by that what I really mean is that this is a shitty piece of material that I shouldn't have bought

Brother ...

That's the most respectable thing I've read here....ever.

.76%, yes 0.76% of our membership consciously remember to think this proper friggin way.

To afraid to admit to themselves they might have wasted money.

What thread was I just talking about this in?
I think it was on my chicken forum! Lol!

Any way, "let's talk philosophy", I wish people saw how that sort of thinking is what makes a good collection. Not wire, not material choice, not sun not fert not dirt.

It's the human mind, , ahem...EASTERN thoughtfulness, that leads to this whole fucking thing!

That's why REVERENCE is necessary, but we think "American Bonsai" exists. Heh.
I argue it can't in any form worth viewing.

Sorce

 

[namnhi]

Even the wedge cut method work for this tree...it will still looking 2nd best. I can't understand the logic to justify doing that. Your first branch and second is almost a mile a part... Not sure how you can accept that.

 

[Bonsai_Bentley]

Even the wedge cut method work for this tree...it will still looking 2nd best. I can't understand the logic to justify doing that. Your first branch and second is almost a mile a part... Not sure how you can accept that.

Yeah, the distance definitely came up in my mind and it's not like this this is going to be prone to back budding on the trunk. It's not a maple. How can I accept that? Well, first I accept the fact that I'm a left-brained person and the artistic side of things aren't necessarily a priority to me. I'm into bonsai for the science first and then the craft/art. Secondly, while I don't want to sound like I'm devaluing this tree because sadly I don't have a bonsai money tree, I understand that I will buy more material and hopefully with a better eye. While I won't gain any bonsai notoriety or praise for an ugly tree (it'll actually be pretty to me no matter what) I will gain experience which will help me in the long run.

From a design standpoint, if all goes as planned I'll get back budding along the branch opposite the side of that stub which I can then lower to fill that negative space. If not, oh well, plan B.