To reduce or not to reduce? (crabapple)

[Kiani]

I just bought this crabapple and while they reduced the 6 ft long branches at the nursery already when it was dug up from the ground, I'm thinking it could do with a little more branch reduction, especially on top.

Opinions would be appreciated, along with any other care tips for this tree. Thanks.

 

[Kiani]

Would this be a good size branch reduction? What effects will this have at this time of year so close to spring?

 

[Stan Kengai]

What you are proposing isn't so much a reduction as it is a trim. Here is what I'd do if this were my tree.


It's rare to see a crab with much taper or movement, but I think you have one here. I would make the 2 upper chops now while dormant, but wait to do the major chop until the plant is in leaf. Waiting to do the big chop would do 2 things: 1) it would limit explosive new growth and 2) give some hope that the wound might heal over eventually (just keep it sealed with grafting paste). At the next repotting, I would change the planting angle as depicted by the arrow. This would give you an upright trunk with a lot of movement, and would hide the apparent flat spot on the left side of the nebari.

I have to quantify that none of my suggestions should be done this year if the plant was just repotted. In that case, just trim it a little (as you suggest) and let it regain its strength.

 

[Kiani]

Thanks for the suggestions Stan. Out of the 30 or so crabs in the ground at my local nursery, this one had the best movement in the trunk. Can I ask why you would sacrifice such a thick trunk with a big chop? Is it to create better overall taper by leaving only the smaller right trunk, or is there another reason?

 

[Stan Kengai]

The reasons I would chop the thick trunk on the left are:
1) To get overall better taper. This will allow you to create a "tree" feeling rather than a thick stump in a pot. As an aside, I would consider growing a sacrifice branch at the first bend of the right branch to thicken up that first section.
2) To get rid of the reverse/poor taper. Notice how the trunk above the first right branch is just as thick or thicker than the trunk just above the nebari. The reverse taper below the first right branch (tree appears to have a "waist" about 2" from the soil) would be nullified by the chop and the revised planting angle.

There may be other angles on this tree that mask or completely hide these trunk problems, if you want to use the thicker upper trunk. But my personal preference would be to use the trunkline I outlined because you very rarely see crabs with this amount of movement and taper, and it would IMO make a very unique and special bonsai. I guess it's hard for me to express in words what I see in this tree's future. Maybe someone on here can put it more eloquently or do a virt so you can see what I'm talking about.

Don't get discouraged at the thought of losing the "big trunk" because this seems to be very good stock. Better to chop an average tree now and start working toward something spectacular. But it still needs many years of work to become a nice bonsai. This material is still in the trunk development stage, though nearing the end. After that, you'll need several years to develop branches and the apex. But in about 10 years, I think this could be a very nice specimen. BTW, to get the leaves and fruit in scale, most crabs need to be about 18" tall, depending on the specific traits of the cultivar.

 

[JudyB]

I agree with Stan, Kiani. The left hand portion of the trunk is far too heavy to be in the upper section of the tree.

I know it's hard when you are starting out to see the meaning of these ideals, but to have a believable taper is to have a believable tree. Your eye will gradually realize this as you see more and more good bonsai. At first, you just see "big trunk" as good trunk. Then you start to notice the nuances that go into making a truly great tree. It's even harder to sacrifice what you see as years of growth to an ideal that you don't fully grasp yet.

But you will get there. The helpful guidance here is setting you toward a goal that you will appreciate when your eye matures to these nuances. I am speaking from a position of experience with this very thing, I was loath to do what was necessary to create good bonsai. But now I see that doing these things, can move you to an entirely different level of understanding. And if you do them early in your process, then you won't waste years, that could be moving the tree forward as opposed to just continuation of mediocre material.

Just remember the advice to just do a trim until this tree has recovered from being dug up this year. Try to have a bit of patience, and you could have a spectacular tree for your reward.

 

[Gene Deci]

FWIW I think Stan and Judy are right on. I would only add one thing. Dead apple wood tends to decay very quickly. I hope you do as Stan suggests and take off the left side but the large wound that will make will be hard to get healed over. Do not get too discouraged if that happens. I have seen apples with dead wood that was hollowed out to good effect. A lot of the fun of bonsai is problem solving.

 

[rockm]

"Can I ask why you would sacrifice such a thick trunk with a big chop?"

This is one of the hardest things to learn in creating a bonsai. Cutting off large sections of thick trunk seems to be a "waste" for those staring out. It's not.

The thing to look at is NOT the upper section of what you're lopping. Look BELOW it. Below that thicker section is a thick trunk that the upper section has grown from. This portion is what you're after in doing trunk chops. The upper sections of a developing bonsai are most often sacrificial to the portions below them.

 

[Kiani]

You guys are going to think I'm making this up but I stood over the crabs at the nursery for a good 10 minutes checking all 20 of them out (in the ground) and I had chosen one with very nice taper, thick base that gradually reduced with the trunk line. But when it came time to dig it out, I asked the employees for their opinions and was told that the tree above was much better. I agreed that the above tree had nice movement as opposed to the rest which were for the most part informal upright styles. I guess seeing experts who work at the nursery picking this one over the rest kind of swayed my decision. I pretty much debated if I had made the right decision all the way home, and I guess I have the answer to that now. I sacrificed taper for trunk movement. I should have stuck to the game plan and gone with my gut.

I did a mock-chop in Photoshop of how it would look after chopping both the right branch and the main trunk on the left just to see how it would look.

 

[JudyB]

And so looking at your images, which one do you choose and why?

 

[misfit11]

You've illustrated what Stan has suggested beautifully. Clearly, the trunkline on the right is the better option for taper and overall movement. With that you'll have outlined the basic structure of the tree. From there it is "simply" developing primary, secondary, tertiary etc branching and ramification.

Like Rock says, it is difficult as a beginner to make the decision to remove 60% of the tree. My wife always thinks I'm nuts when I do a drastic chop when developing a bonsai. Sometimes in bonsai you need to think of what the tree will look like in 5 or ten years rather that what it looks like right now. This is often rather tough but will ultimately result in a much better tree. The alternative is to not do the big cut now and try to develop the tree as it is. Then 5 years down the road after you've learned more you will decide that it needs to be chopped to be a better tree. The only difference is that you've wasted 5 years.... I did this A LOT when I was first learning.

 

[Kiani]

And so looking at your images, which one do you choose and why?

Hi Judy. I think that if a few branches on the right side of the tree are removed close to the trunk, the main trunk's taper improves. As you can see here in this virtual shot, what do you think?. But of course, much better taper would be acheived by removing the main trunk and leaving the right side branch as everyone is suggesting.

I feel kinda silly now for opting for this particular tree because of it's interesting style and sacrificing taper, because in the end I have to give up that so called interesting trunk movement anyway. Oh well, I guess I will live and learn from this. This tree is a gift for my mother in the spring, I doubt she will care much for taper and such, but next year maybe when it's time, we'll go for the big ol' chop.

 

[Stan Kengai]

Kiani, looking at the two virtuals you've done above, the tree on the left has decent movement and no taper and the one on the right looks rather small but has great movement and taper. I think the problem you're having right now (besides thinking it a waste to remove so much of the tree) is that the tree is in a deep training pot. But what you have to envision (and this comes with some experience) is how these two trees would look in their final pots. Changing from your current 6-8" deep pot (which is fine for establishment) to a 2-3" final pot will make the trunk look at least twice as big as it looks now. This is part of the illusion of bonsai, and why container selection is of huge importance. Does anyone know of a thread here that can illustrate this for Kiani? I'll try to find something, too.

 

[Kiani]

"Can I ask why you would sacrifice such a thick trunk with a big chop?"

This is one of the hardest things to learn in creating a bonsai. Cutting off large sections of thick trunk seems to be a "waste" for those staring out. It's not.

The thing to look at is NOT the upper section of what you're lopping. Look BELOW it. Below that thicker section is a thick trunk that the upper section has grown from. This portion is what you're after in doing trunk chops. The upper sections of a developing bonsai are most often sacrificial to the portions below them.

I've only been involved in bonsai for a month or two but I really do appreciate how important taper is to a bonsai trunk, to give the overall illusion of an old aged tree, and while I'm not regretting picking this particular tree, I do wish it had a thicker trunk at the base.

Hopefully by next year I'll have more understanding of how to correctly chop and what to do with this crab.

In the meantime, I don't guess there's a way to help thicken up the base of the trunk? Maybe the good old small hammer trick, a few taps a day?

 

[Kiani]

Kiani, looking at the two virtuals you've done above, the tree on the left has decent movement and no taper and the one on the right looks rather small but has great movement and taper. I think the problem you're having right now (besides thinking it a waste to remove so much of the tree) is that the tree is in a deep training pot. But what you have to envision (and this comes with some experience) is how these two trees would look in their final pots. Changing from your current 6-8" deep pot (which is fine for establishment) to a 2-3" final pot will make the trunk look at least twice as big as it looks now. This is part of the illusion of bonsai, and why container selection is of huge importance. Does anyone know of a thread here that can illustrate this for Kiani? I'll try to find something, too.

Stan, I'm learning more every day about why pot selection is so important. In the beginning I used to think why so much emphasis on a pot, it's just a pot, pick a nice one and bam, it's done. But with each passing day I see why a pot can make a good looking bonsai in to a great looking bonsai, and vise e versa. I haven't even thought about next years re-potting and which pot to use yet. Maybe when the time comes, I can get help from you all in choosing the right one.

 

[rockm]

"I do wish it had a thicker trunk at the base.

Hopefully by next year I'll have more understanding of how to correctly chop and what to do with this crab."

If this is the case, let the tree alone, don't prune it. Let it grow unhindered for a couple of years. Unfettered growth in the container, or better yet, in the ground, will add to the trunk's diameter. If you prune it hard now, it will double, possibly triple, the amount of time required to increase the trunk's diameter.

So in short, if you're not happy with the trunk's diameter now, don't prune it. Let it go.

Personally, I think the tree is pretty good as it is now with the trunk chops. Work with THIS tree, NOT with the pictures of other trees you've seen...

 

[JudyB]

I think that it's a good tree, you don't see movement like this in many crabapple trees.

But you need to look closely at the images without the leaves, and see what the point of the instruction is. You see that the upper trunk in the left hand photo is still as big as the lower trunk. Just taking branches off will not make it any thinner. And thus you do not have taper in that version of your tree.

Now look at the right hand photo. See how it does get smaller and smaller as it goes up INCREMENTALLY. I capped that because that is the lesson. If you have taper only at the apex, it is not taper. It needs to be throughout the entirety of the trunk and branching as well.

You will get proportional thickening of the trunk all the way up the tree with the second version. As the base swells, the other parts will be growing in correct perspective to the overall tree. Do you see what I mean?

 

[Kiani]

"I do wish it had a thicker trunk at the base.

Hopefully by next year I'll have more understanding of how to correctly chop and what to do with this crab."

If this is the case, let the tree alone, don't prune it. Let it grow unhindered for a couple of years. Unfettered growth in the container, or better yet, in the ground, will add to the trunk's diameter. If you prune it hard now, it will double, possibly triple, the amount of time required to increase the trunk's diameter.

So in short, if you're not happy with the trunk's diameter now, don't prune it. Let it go.

Personally, I think the tree is pretty good as it is now with the trunk chops. Work with THIS tree, NOT with the pictures of other trees you've seen...

The only thing I'm not happy with this tree is the base of the trunk, if only it was thicker at the base, especially on the lower right side, I honestly wouldn't change a thing.

Is there anything else I can do in addition to leaving the tree alone in the current pot? I keep hearing about the small hammer technique where hitting the trunk lightly with a hammer every day can thicken the trunk due to the controlled pressure put on it. Any thoughts?

I'd like to start a test, measure the base of the trunk, use the small hammer technique for 6 months, then measure again at the end and see the difference, if any.

 

[Kiani]

I think that it's a good tree, you don't see movement like this in many crabapple trees.

But you need to look closely at the images without the leaves, and see what the point of the instruction is. You see that the upper trunk in the left hand photo is still as big as the lower trunk. Just taking branches off will not make it any thinner. And thus you do not have taper in that version of your tree.

Now look at the right hand photo. See how it does get smaller and smaller as it goes up INCREMENTALLY. I capped that because that is the lesson. If you have taper only at the apex, it is not taper. It needs to be throughout the entirety of the trunk and branching as well.

You will get proportional thickening of the trunk all the way up the tree with the second version. As the base swells, the other parts will be growing in correct perspective to the overall tree. Do you see what I mean?

I understand you 100% Judy, thank you for the explanation

I'm considering measuring the base of the trunk, and using the small hammer technique against the lower right side of the base of the trunk, and measuring it again in 6 months to see if it makes a difference in trunk size. What do you think? I've heard this works if done correctly.

 

[Kiani]

I just added a little thickness to the base of the trunk (the hallow bit on the right side) and look what a big difference it makes! If the tree came looking like the image on the right, would there be any need for a chop at all?