To reduce or not to reduce? (crabapple)

rockm

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DO NOT HAMMER the trunk. It is a really bad solution to your problem and won't produce the results you're looking for--unintended consequences are much greater than simply leaving it alone and letting it grow. Look, there is no immediate "fix" for bonsai stuff, no matter what you read. Shortcuts usually end up looking like shortcuts or worse.

You've probably dropped some $$ on this tree. You really want to risk screwing it up because you're impatient?

You seem to want to have a "finished" bonsai immediately. The only way to do that is to buy a finished bonsai instead of raw stock.

IMO, this tree absolutely needs a drastic reduction. Without it, down the road the bulkier side of the tree will dominate the weaker and only get more ungainly looking as time passes. If you look at any crabapple bonsai, including the one you posted by Walter Pall, you will see that they have undergone drastic reduction over the years.
 
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Kiani

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DO NOT HAMMER the trunk. It is a really bad solution to your problem and won't produce the results you're looking for--unintended consequences are much greater than simply leaving it alone and letting it grow. Look, there is no immediate "fix" for bonsai stuff, no matter what you read. Shortcuts usually end up looking like shortcuts or worse.

You've probably dropped some $$ on this tree. You really want to risk screwing it up because you're impatient?

You seem to want to have a "finished" bonsai immediately. The only way to do that is to buy a finished bonsai instead of raw stock.

IMO, this tree absolutely needs a drastic reduction. Without it, down the road the bulkier side of the tree will dominate the weaker and only get more ungainly looking as time passes. If you look at any crabapple bonsai, including the one you posted by Walter Pall, you will see that they have undergone drastic reduction over the years.

I'm really not looking for a perfect, trained and potted bonsai. Every bonsai I have bought has either been pre-bonsai or dug up from the ground, as I really enjoy the learning process and creative process that goes in to creating a bonsai.

Do you have any personal experience with the hammering technique, or can you direct me to any threads/websites/articles regarding it? I'm just curious why you think the results will be bad.
 
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JudyB

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It is your tree do what you want to do with it.

I do not think the hammer idea is a sound one.

I think only time will give you eyes to see what needs to be done, and experience to actually follow through with the plan. In a year or so, come back and see if you still feel the same way about this. The tree needs to be balanced as Stan showed you or it will never be a great tree. But perhaps you would be happier with it, left the way it is. And there is nothing wrong with that, it is after all your tree. Just don't have any illusions that it'll be a really good bonsai at the end of the process.
 

Dav4

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DO NOT HAMMER the trunk. It is a really bad solution to your problem and won't produce the results you're looking for--unintended consequences are much greater than simply leaving it alone and letting it grow. Look, there is no immediate "fix" for bonsai stuff, no matter what you read. Shortcuts usually end up looking like shortcuts or worse.

You've probably dropped some $$ on this tree. You really want to risk screwing it up because you're impatient?

You seem to want to have a "finished" bonsai immediately. The only way to do that is to buy a finished bonsai instead of raw stock.

IMO, this tree absolutely needs a drastic reduction. Without it, down the road the bulkier side of the tree will dominate the weaker and only get more ungainly looking as time passes. If you look at any crabapple bonsai, including the one you posted by Walter Pall, you will see that they have undergone drastic reduction over the years.

+ 1 for Rockm...he gave you great advice.
 

rockm

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"Do you have any personal experience with the hammering technique, or can you direct me to any threads/websites/articles regarding it? I'm just curious why you think the results will be bad."

Yes, did it long ago when I started out. I did it timidy on one tree, didn't get any real swelling. Went on to another, got more aggressive and put an ugly lump on an elm. Took me years to get rid of the scar on the trunk, which was extremely localized and an odd mismatch to the rest of the tree's bark and outline.

Books are great, some books aren't. In actual practice some of the advice given in some of the less than terrific books can be horrible.

FWIW, you will have little trouble growing the trunk on an apple out. They are vigorous trees and will fill in growth quickly, particularly if you put them in the ground for a few years.

There are no quick solutions in bonsai. No fix-it-now options. ALL sound bonsai techniques take time.
 

Kiani

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"Do you have any personal experience with the hammering technique, or can you direct me to any threads/websites/articles regarding it? I'm just curious why you think the results will be bad."

Yes, did it long ago when I started out. I did it timidy on one tree, didn't get any real swelling. Went on to another, got more aggressive and put an ugly lump on an elm. Took me years to get rid of the scar on the trunk, which was extremely localized and an odd mismatch to the rest of the tree's bark and outline.

Books are great, some books aren't. In actual practice some of the advice given in some of the less than terrific books can be horrible.

FWIW, you will have little trouble growing the trunk on an apple out. They are vigorous trees and will fill in growth quickly, particularly if you put them in the ground for a few years.

There are no quick solutions in bonsai. No fix-it-now options. ALL sound bonsai techniques take time.

Thanks again Rock. I'll leave it alone and deal with the taper/chop issue next year.

Another question. I want to trim the branches down today, should I leave the very long branch on top as a sacrifice branch to help thicken up the trunk? Can that long branch be used as a sacrifice branch given that it was just snipped a couple of days ago and has sealer on the end?

The reason I ask if it can or not, is because I was told at the nursery that when those big branches are chopped, the branch actually starts to die from an inch or two before the tip where it was snipped.
 
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Kiani

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Quick update. Trimmed down the branches today. I'm not sure if leaving a sacrifice branch will help thicken up the base of the trunk but I thought it couldn't hurt so I left the biggest branch untouched. Any info on how effective a sacrifice branch is on a crab this size, and how long it would take to see any noticeable difference would be appreciated. Cheers!

donos2.jpg
 
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Randy

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If you don't mind I would suggest you read this article by Brent Walston. Growing Large Trunks for Bonsai

Here is an excerpt from that article that will hopefully answer your question about sacrifice branches.
"Use sacrifice branches and leaders to correct a problem when your tree already has good form and finished branches. Remember that branches increase trunk caliper up to their point of attachment. To increase the diameter along the entire trunk allow a sacrifice branch to grow near the apex of the tree, but not at the very tip of the apex or it will destroy its delicate structure."

If you haven't already I would also suggest reading up on some plant physiology. Very useful and practical things to learn. Maybe start with Brent's site and go from there.

As for a more direct answer I would ask you after you read up on these topics a couple questions. If you would keep a sacrifice branch on the trunk area that you intend to eventually cut off will that not make that larger, as well as the trunk-line below it? Now, will that also make the scar from cutting off that trunk larger? You seem to understand that the health of the tree is very important. As for a sacrifice branch, where do you want to make the trunk larger? Also consider the scar from cutting said sacrifice off.
 
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Kiani

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If you don't mind I would suggest you read this article by Brent Walston. Growing Large Trunks for Bonsai

Here is an excerpt from that article that will hopefully answer your question about sacrifice branches.
"Use sacrifice branches and leaders to correct a problem when your tree already has good form and finished branches. Remember that branches increase trunk caliper up to their point of attachment. To increase the diameter along the entire trunk allow a sacrifice branch to grow near the apex of the tree, but not at the very tip of the apex or it will destroy its delicate structure.

If you haven't already I would also suggest reading up on some plant physiology. Very useful and practical things to learn. Maybe start with Brent's site and go from there.

Thanks Randy, I'll be sure to check out Brent's website.

So if a sacrifice branch will "increase trunk caliper up to their point of attachment" then I guess that sacrifice branch I left at the top is not really going to help increase the base of the trunk, rather it will aid in increasing the size of the entire trunk up to the sacrifice branch, am I reading this right?
 

Randy

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Correct. Sorry I edited my post while you posted and answered more directly. But you seem to get it.
 

Kiani

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Correct. Sorry I edited my post while you posted and answered more directly. But you seem to get it.

Thanks again, very helpful.

I guess the S branch can be trimmed too then.
 

Kiani

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Would appreciate anyone who owns a crabapple to lend some general advice. I hear there are techniques to getting the best possible bloom in spring. My crab has little buds all over, is there anything I can do in addition to watering and leaving the tree in full sun to aid in its spring bloom?
 

Randy

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Full Sun?

You might find this thread of JudyB's enlightening as well because it is all crab advice. And a nice tree.
 

Kiani

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Full Sun?

You might find this thread of JudyB's enlightening as well because it is all crab advice. And a nice tree.

I saw Judy's tree, looks brilliant. Love the shari.

Well all my trees get around 2-3 hours of direct sunlight a day (on the patio) and by afternoon time they are in shade when the sunlight moves away.
 

Kiani

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Full Sun?

You might find this thread of JudyB's enlightening as well because it is all crab advice. And a nice tree.

I saw Judy's tree, looks brilliant. Love the shari.

Well all my trees get around 2-3 hours of direct sunlight a day (on the patio) and by afternoon time they are in shade when the sunlight moves away.
 

Kiani

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What you are proposing isn't so much a reduction as it is a trim. Here is what I'd do if this were my tree.
View attachment 21462

It's rare to see a crab with much taper or movement, but I think you have one here. I would make the 2 upper chops now while dormant, but wait to do the major chop until the plant is in leaf. Waiting to do the big chop would do 2 things: 1) it would limit explosive new growth and 2) give some hope that the wound might heal over eventually (just keep it sealed with grafting paste). At the next repotting, I would change the planting angle as depicted by the arrow. This would give you an upright trunk with a lot of movement, and would hide the apparent flat spot on the left side of the nebari.

I have to quantify that none of my suggestions should be done this year if the plant was just repotted. In that case, just trim it a little (as you suggest) and let it regain its strength.

Hey Stan, just a follow up on your point about the big chop. You said to do it when the tree is in leaf, do you know when that would be for a crabapple? The left branch is pretty thick so is it ok to use a hand saw to take it off?

I also did a virt of what it would look like in photoshop with the chopped version slightly tilted to the left so it's not too slanted, and added a few branches.

nlym4w.jpg
 
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Martin Sweeney

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Stan,

The chop of the left trunk seems like good advise to me. If I owned this tree, I would follow it.

Regards,
Martin
 

JudyB

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Hey Stan, just a follow up on your point about the big chop. You said to do it when the tree is in leaf, do you know when that would be for a crabapple? The left branch is pretty thick so is it ok to use a hand saw to take it off?

I also did a virt of what it would look like in photoshop with the chopped version slightly tilted to the left so it's not too slanted, and added a few branches.

nlym4w.jpg

Now you have the idea. This is the best plan, the basic plan Stan proposed, and we all agree on. The tree should be in leaf pretty soon, mine in Ohio is already almost popping buds, I'm surprised yours isn't in full leaf already.
 

Kiani

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Now you have the idea. This is the best plan, the basic plan Stan proposed, and we all agree on. The tree should be in leaf pretty soon, mine in Ohio is already almost popping buds, I'm surprised yours isn't in full leaf already.

When I bought my crab around 2 weeks ago, I was told at the nursery that it would bloom in around 2 months. So far it's covered in little buds and only a couple have opened up.
30di7iw.jpg
 

Kiani

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By the way, is there anything I can do to keep the big branch on the left that will be cut off? If I stick it in a pot, will it survive and grow its own roots?
 
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