Training Branches for Future Layers / just a thought

[penumbra]

So I am reading some posts here about air layering and recognizing the fact that finding air layer material on trees suitable for bonsai is seldom an easy task. Much talk about long straight sections that are most unbonsai like. I know this is not an original thought, I'm not convinced these ideas even exist though almost any thought can be original to the individual. Regardless..........
Why not start training future layers while still on the tree? If it wasn't pouring down rain I might be walking around now and looking at my trees for future layers. As long as you check on things regularly, I see not reason why you couldn't wire, twist, bend and chop your future bonsai while it is still under the care of the mother tree. Theoretically, is there any reason you couldn't do much of your bonsai training before separating the bonsai to be from the tree? It could take a few years but I recon I will still be around.

Who is doing this now? Would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[Pitoon]

So I am reading some posts here about air layering and recognizing the fact that finding air layer material on trees suitable for bonsai is seldom an easy task. Much talk about long straight sections that are most unbonsai like. I know this is not an original thought, I'm not convinced these ideas even exist though almost any thought can be original to the individual. Regardless..........
Why not start training future layers while still on the tree? If it wasn't pouring down rain I might be walking around now and looking at my trees for future layers. As long as you check on things regularly, I see not reason why you couldn't wire, twist, bend and chop your future bonsai while it is still under the care of the mother tree. Theoretically, is there any reason you couldn't do much of your bonsai training before separating the bonsai to be from the tree? It could take a few years but I recon I will still be around.

Who is doing this now? Would love to hear your thoughts.

I have a Willow Oak that sprouted naturally at the front end of our lot. I am currently training it in the ground where it sprouted. It's currently a little over 4yrs old right now. It's been chopped back once and has two lead apexes now. I need to pick one and cut off the other. I don't see why you can't train while in the ground or still attached to the tree. The only disadvantage in my case is that I will not be able to do any root work until I dig it up. I'll post pics when I get a chance.

 

[sorce]

This has always been the fastest way to a good bonsai for me.

Even including the possibility of layers not taking or coming out jacked up, you still have the least amount of work put into to as many subjects as you like.

Sorce

 

[TinyArt]

Must have overheard you all, as I was out walking the dog... Looking at big scraggly volunteer lantanas, and thinking "well, it would be practice for me, if nothing else." Nothing wasted in that venture -- thanks for the affirmation! Heck, they're even tall enough that I can take a stool & sit down. (When it's no so hot.)

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

This will especially works very well with shimpaku.
You can wire up branches and take them off as air layerings to create future (twisted up) stock.

 

[Pitoon]

@penumbra here's the Willow Oak......my goal is to keep it small mame/shohin size. I'm sure if you walk your property you will find plenty to keep you busy.

 

[penumbra]

@penumbra here's the Willow Oak......my goal is to keep it small mame/shohin size. I'm sure if you walk your property you will find plenty to keep you busy.

View attachment 380154
View attachment 380155

Are you going to eventually layer or dig it?

 

[SeanS]

In Japan professionals will buy larger sized bonsai and air layer the tops off to make shohin. Apparently shohin trees have been layered off and entered into the Kokufu 7 months later.

Here’s my spin on the concept. I’m building a shohin sized tree from scratch while it’s still connected to the very vigorous fire hose root system of a larger tree. Only started it earlier this season so there’s still some way to go, but I’ll get more out of next season connected to the mother tree than if I layered it straight off now.

 

[Pitoon]

Are you going to eventually layer or dig it?

Still undecided at this point. Oaks don't air layer very well, and it would be a shame to loose it after all the years put in growing it.

 

[River's Edge]

So I am reading some posts here about air layering and recognizing the fact that finding air layer material on trees suitable for bonsai is seldom an easy task. Much talk about long straight sections that are most unbonsai like. I know this is not an original thought, I'm not convinced these ideas even exist though almost any thought can be original to the individual. Regardless..........
Why not start training future layers while still on the tree? If it wasn't pouring down rain I might be walking around now and looking at my trees for future layers. As long as you check on things regularly, I see not reason why you couldn't wire, twist, bend and chop your future bonsai while it is still under the care of the mother tree. Theoretically, is there any reason you couldn't do much of your bonsai training before separating the bonsai to be from the tree? It could take a few years but I recon I will still be around.

Who is doing this now? Would love to hear your thoughts.

Several of the common training techniques commonly used in developing Bonsai follow this pattern of thought! Juniper is the most obvious one I would suggest as an example. The mother plant is grown out to have long flexible whips, the whips are wired and compressed for movement in the eventual trunk. because the whips are very flexible and young dramatic turns and twists are possible. After the whips are set in position that portion is air layers off and planted in the ground or grow boxes to thicken the trunk and begin developing primary branch structure.
Another example of using this concept is wiring a branch for desired movement and allowing it to set in position before turning it into a Jin. In this case one is not removing the branch but adding to the overall design.
One more example is girdling the trunk or branch for a period of time prior to air layering in order to establish a flair to the base in advance, hastening the overall design while still attached to the mother plant.

 

[SeanS]

Several of the common training techniques commonly used in developing Bonsai follow this pattern of thought! Juniper is the most obvious one I would suggest as an example. The mother plant is grown out to have long flexible whips, the whips are wired and compressed for movement in the eventual trunk. because the whips are very flexible and young dramatic turns and twists are possible. After the whips are set in position that portion is air layers off and planted in the ground or grow boxes to thicken the trunk and begin developing primary branch structure.
Another example of using this concept is wiring a branch for desired movement and allowing it to set in position before turning it into a Jin. In this case one is not removing the branch but adding to the overall design.
One more example is girdling the trunk or branch for a period of time prior to air layering in order to establish a flair to the base in advance, hastening the overall design while still attached to the mother plant.

Merrigioli’s book documents a similar concept, growing seedlings through a washer above the soil.

 

[Pitoon]

Merrigioli’s book documents a similar concept, growing seedlings through a washer above the soil.


View attachment 380159

That's a nice set up he has going on.

 

[River's Edge]

I am providing three pictures to explain previous post #10.
First one is a tree I developed with this method.
Second the mother plant with suitable extensions for wiring prior to air layering. The lower portion is now being developed for a Bonsai in the meantime. I prefer extensions approximately 12 to 18 inches for wiring. Shorter and thinner if more dramatic curves and twists desired.
Third picture, air layered portions, still wired and planted in grow bed to grow out.
Hope they help to explain previous post.

 

[penumbra]

Still undecided at this point. Oaks don't air layer very well, and it would be a shame to loose it after all the years put in growing it.

So are you spading around it? When I used to harvest wild dogwoods and redbuds to sell, I would generally spade in tight around them so they would develop finer roots closer to the trunk. Then I would dig the plant the following season. Dogwoods were not so bad but it is about the only way I could dig a redbud with any success. I also used this method for a variety of other trees.

 

[penumbra]

I not actually a juniper guy but I find much of the above information really interesting. I may have to work on a few juniper.

 

[Pitoon]

I am providing three pictures to explain previous post #10.
First one is a tree I developed with this method.
Second the mother plant with suitable extensions for wiring prior to air layering. The lower portion is now being developed for a Bonsai in the meantime. I prefer extensions approximately 12 to 18 inches for wiring. Shorter and thinner if more dramatic curves and twists desired.
Third picture, air layered portions, still wired and planted in grow bed to grow out.
Hope they help to explain previous post. View attachment 380164View attachment 380165View attachment 380166

Excellent post as always!

 

[Pitoon]

So are you spading around it? When I used to harvest wild dogwoods and redbuds to sell, I would generally spade in tight around them so they would develop finer roots closer to the trunk. Then I would dig the plant the following season. Dogwoods were not so bad but it is about the only way I could dig a redbud with any success. I also used this method for a variety of other trees.

That's a good idea. My main concern was about the tap root. Once the rain stops I'm going spade around it and down at an angle to get the tap root. Hopefully that will start the process for it to build finer roots and make it easier to dig up when it's time.