TreeJunkie Mini Mugo Progression

[TreeJunkie]

Decided to start this thread to track progression on my little Mugo and hopefully get advice from people like Vance along the way.

Here was the Mugo when I first got it at the beginning of April (left (obviously))



Basically just slip pitted the whole root ball into a pond basket and its been growing nicely. These are little cones that its putting out, not buds, right? What should I do with these?



I would like to remove some of the whorl branches to avoid knuckling (hard to get a good picture) but i know you have to be careful pruning these. Should I do that this year or wait til next year for it to establish more?



I think I want to keep this as a small shohin because I don't feel like waiting for this thing to grow into a big tree. Should I pinch any buds at this stage or just let it grow?

Looking forward to hearing advice. I want to take things slow with this and make sure I do it right!

 

[Paradox]

The corn on the cob looking things are the new candles extending. The clumps of balls on the base of some are pollen cones. They will fall off once they are done.

You should reduce the areas with multiple buds on one clump (ie the lower left branch in your second picture)to 2 and pinch the very long ones in half to reduce shoot size if you want this to be a shohin

 

[TreeJunkie]

The corn on the cob looking things are the new candles extending. The clumps of balls on the base of some are pollen cones. They will fall off once they are done.

You should reduce the areas with multiple buds on one clump (ie the lower left branch in your second picture)to 2 and pinch the very long ones in half to reduce shoot size if you want this to be a shohin

Okay so i should remove/reduce buds now and not wait for needles to push out?

 

[Paradox]

Okay so i should remove/reduce buds now and not wait for needles to push out?

Yes you dont want 5 new shoots all coming out at the same place. Carefully cut all but 2.

Yes pinch the long ones in half, do not remove them completely. Waiting for the needles to push out is too late for this procedure.
By doing this you are slowing down the growth of the shoot, reducing the internode length and controlling vigor of the shoot

 

[sorce]

Okay so i should remove/reduce buds now and not wait for needles to push out?

Did you cut it already?

There is never a good horticultural reason to reduce growth to 2's that you won't beekeeping. Zzzzz! Lol!

Is that a side branch on that branch?


Even that branch is a bit far out to make use of, but it could work.

You're better off allowing all that growth through till early/mid summer, then cutting it all off to that side branch in hopes of popping buds behind that side branch.

You'll never get the giant activation you need to pop interior buds if you remove little bits at a time.

Since listening to Ryan Neil speak of how branch traffic makes backbuds, not cutting, I been working Mugo on a schedule that's basically a "year late", but it provides a better structure on a healthier tree, much earlier.

It's a rare instance that I worry about spring tip growth, cuz it is almost never used in design. I'd argue it may be impossible to create a shohin sized tree with spring tip growth. Activated interior needle buds are closer, tighter, less likely to pollen cone, just all around better to build with.

I'd pin that branch to the ground to allow light to the interior of the branch, then lop it later.

Lop it later the Activater!

Sorce

 

[TreeJunkie]

Did you cut it already?

There is never a good horticultural reason to reduce growth to 2's that you won't beekeeping. Zzzzz! Lol!

Is that a side branch on that branch?
View attachment 433664

Even that branch is a bit far out to make use of, but it could work.

You're better off allowing all that growth through till early/mid summer, then cutting it all off to that side branch in hopes of popping buds behind that side branch.

You'll never get the giant activation you need to pop interior buds if you remove little bits at a time.

Since listening to Ryan Neil speak of how branch traffic makes backbuds, not cutting, I been working Mugo on a schedule that's basically a "year late", but it provides a better structure on a healthier tree, much earlier.

It's a rare instance that I worry about spring tip growth, cuz it is almost never used in design. I'd argue it may be impossible to create a shohin sized tree with spring tip growth. Activated interior needle buds are closer, tighter, less likely to pollen cone, just all around better to build with.

I'd pin that branch to the ground to allow light to the interior of the branch, then lop it later.

Lop it later the Activater!

Sorce

No I didn't cut anything yet.

So you’re saying to keep the branch but try to force backbudding?



So let it grow then chop back to the interior bud later in the summer?

 

[sorce]

No I didn't cut anything yet.

So you’re saying to keep the branch but try to force backbudding?

View attachment 433708

So let it grow then chop back to the interior bud later in the summer?

It's much more "allow" than "force".

Is that not a fully developed woody branch I thought I saw there?

If not, yeah, that furthest in, bud now/branch later, will be easier to cut back to after growth once the branches have defined themselves.

Since needles stay, on a *healthy tree, for three years, and you're more likely to get interior buds by removing more exterior strength, allowing the first year to provide traffic to sprout buds and cutting in the second is optimal.

So you're balancing between too early (now), and too late, after needle fall.

The problem then, with a weak tree, is that you don't get enough time to gain exterior health before the needles fall early in the second year.
Which is really just a reason to keep health up, since it becomes near impossible to get backbuds, if we do keep trying to "force" them. Chances are greatly reduced when removing growth that will never be used in design.

Truth truth though....

That entire branch may be one that never gets used in a design.

So I would "fine tooth comb" the whole thing and really identify what branches will remain.

Pull everything else down out the way and use the branches with the best values for.....
Exit spot, movement, tight nodes, interior buds, etc etc.

Sho ain't no hurry!

Sorce

 

[yashu]

…so it’s kosher to bud select this early? I previously understood that if you bud select (as opposed to pinching) early in the growing season and knock the whorls down to 2 each that the energy that was initially going into 5 candles would now be powering 2 and lead to longer extension. Alternately if you pinch to balance bud length and then select to two after the needles harden off the length will be set and you can be assured that no more extension will occur. This was just my understanding so far so please let me know if I’m barking up the wrong tree here.

 

[TreeJunkie]

It's much more "allow" than "force".

Is that not a fully developed woody branch I thought I saw there?

If not, yeah, that furthest in, bud now/branch later, will be easier to cut back to after growth once the branches have defined themselves.

Since needles stay, on a *healthy tree, for three years, and you're more likely to get interior buds by removing more exterior strength, allowing the first year to provide traffic to sprout buds and cutting in the second is optimal.

So you're balancing between too early (now), and too late, after needle fall.

The problem then, with a weak tree, is that you don't get enough time to gain exterior health before the needles fall early in the second year.
Which is really just a reason to keep health up, since it becomes near impossible to get backbuds, if we do keep trying to "force" them. Chances are greatly reduced when removing growth that will never be used in design.

Truth truth though....

That entire branch may be one that never gets used in a design.

So I would "fine tooth comb" the whole thing and really identify what branches will remain.

Pull everything else down out the way and use the branches with the best values for.....
Exit spot, movement, tight nodes, interior buds, etc etc.

Sho ain't no hurry!

Sorce

Ah I see. no its not a branch, maybe it was the little broken one on the left that you saw? Here’s another angle.



Can you elaborate what you mean by branch traffic? Does that mean more activity going on in a given branch causes it to push back buds? Right now I’m thinking I’m about to take a good hard look at the tree and decide which branches im going to beekeeping (lol), then reduce those to 2 buds, and then reduce those buds to 1/3 length. I am going to leave one large bud to become a leader and help the tree grow a little bit taller. Do you think its too soon to select and pinch/do both at the same time?

 

[TreeJunkie]

…so it’s kosher to bud select this early? I previously understood that if you bud select (as opposed to pinching) early in the growing season and knock the whorls down to 2 each that the energy that was initially going into 5 candles would now be powering 2 and lead to longer extension. Alternately if you pinch to balance bud length and then select to two after the needles harden off the length will be set and you can be assured that no more extension will occur. This was just my understanding so far so please let me know if I’m barking up the wrong tree here.

And what if I select and pinch at the same time like @Paradox suggested?

 

[yashu]

And what if I select and pinch at the same time like @Paradox suggested?

I’m wondering the same thing. I’m still relatively new to pines and there’s so much information to sort through. I should probably lay take and keep notes since I can’t seem to remember which practices are for single flush and which are for multiflush pines.

 

[Paradox]

…so it’s kosher to bud select this early? I previously understood that if you bud select (as opposed to pinching) early in the growing season and knock the whorls down to 2 each that the energy that was initially going into 5 candles would now be powering 2 and lead to longer extension. Alternately if you pinch to balance bud length and then select to two after the needles harden off the length will be set and you can be assured that no more extension will occur. This was just my understanding so far so please let me know if I’m barking up the wrong tree here.

It should have been done in the fall/winter after the buds formed for this year (buds form the previous fall). You don't want 5 buds coming out of the same spot. It makes that area too strong. It can be done now, carefully so you don't damage the ones you want to keep. And yes you should be pinching the long candles you want to keep. That will lessen internode length ie extension.


I don't know where you got that you need to wait until the needles extend to select shoots, which is what you would be doing at that point. I think you are confusing bud selection with candle cutting on two flush pines with pinching candles on single flush pines.

 

[yashu]

Thanks. I think you’re right. I’ve watched and read so much on single and multi-flush that its just all mashed together at this point.

 

[yashu]

…my poor trees

 

[Paradox]

Thanks. I think you’re right. I’ve watched and read so much on single and multi-flush that its just all mashed together at this point.

Don't feel bad, I also had a lot of confusion between single and two flush pines when I started. I solved the problem by studying and learning about 2 flush pines until I understood those well then I worked on learning single flush pines. Helped me keep them straight.

 

[TreeJunkie]

Alright so I eliminated or cut back all of the candles reducing to pairs, except for one which I want to grow as a leader to eventually add a 2nd tier to the tree. I took a good look at the tree and I have an idea of the future trunk line and front so I know which branches I’ll be removing later in the summer. I got some slightly better photos but still too small/dense to get my camera in there to get any meaningful images. I highlighted the future trunk line in the 3rd photo

 

[TreeJunkie]

Reduced the biggest whorl and first low branch, left the upper branch whorls to be reduced next year.

 

[TreeJunkie]

Looks like im getting something like a 2nd flush on both of my Mugos.. Didn’t think this was possible?

 

[Paradox]

Looks like im getting something like a 2nd flush on both of my Mugos.. Didn’t think this was possible?

The first picture shows a bud forming for next year which is normal.

The second picture shows needles buds or dormant buds pushing as a result of the pruning ie back budding.

Neither are really "second flush" which results from candle cutting JPB and JRP. When we candle cut 2 flush pines we get new growth just below where this year's candle was cut hence second flush.