Tricked by a Vendor - Bad Vendor - Bad eBay Seller - Bad Dealer Thread

rockm

Spuds Moyogi
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One of the biggest problems I have here is the poster is looking more like the people he/she is trying to rein in. They haven't posted here before, yet demand some pretty specific, problematic information, then offer veiled inuendo if those demands aren't complied with.

Here on the East Coast operations that require up front payment to protect a business have historically been called "protection rackets" run by palookas who will bust your head if you don't pay not to have your business ruined.

Over the years here, I've seen very fine things sold by people with extremely high standards, like Don. They're not making piles of money and they certainly aren't out to rip people off. I hate to see them intimidated by someone who apparently has absolutely no idea what they're doing. Anyone who takes time to actually look around at what's being offered online can make some pretty easy assumptions about who's who among bonsai sellers. Additionally, I've not seen anyone here shy away from offering opinions on GOOD sellers, which is the way to approach this, not from the assumption that they're all crooks from the outset.
 
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Stan Kengai

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This idea sounds good in theory, but I doubt that anyone can make it work in the real world. As an example, there is a local "home services adviser" where consumers can go to get recommendations for a certain type of service provider. And the 2 most highly rated providers in my profession are two of the lousiest companies, and I can honestly say this having worked with and behind both of them. They are unreliable, dishonest and unethical, and their product quality often borders on professional negligence. One of the problems is that, in my field, the public is generally unaware of what is and isn't a good product. (sounds a lot like bonsai to me)

What's to stop the dishonest companies from posing as customers and giving themselves rave reviews or trashing their competition?
 
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Poink88

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Don, you are not only honest but I have found you to be one of the "good guys" offering not only great trees but great advice also. You also follow up with your customers and I think this is special. You definitely are on my list of those on this forum that I referred to earlier.

Hear! hear!

Don,

I am very picky when purchasing a tree and want to make sure I am getting my hard earned money's worth. I too say you are among the best (though I honestly haven't tried the other recommended sellers yet). I only wish I can afford your nicer stock. :D

Thanks for the free advise, quality trees, patience, and prompt service. :)
 

milehigh_7

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LOL at Indoor Jenny! You seem to have built quite a negative reputation for yourself in a very short time! You have also annoyed some of the real good folks of the art which is pretty hard to do. The problem with that is that the world wide bonsai community is fairly close knit as groups go so you might want to find a different water hole to poison!
 
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The bonsai world is small, word travels fast and the wretched sellers will be weeded out by the market just as quickly as the OP's website can do it. That is my opinion.

Plus there are already vendor feedback forums/threads informing potential buyers of previous buyers' buying experiences.

The information is already there, you just have to look. What are the odds that someone who wants to buy a bonsai will know to go to the OP's website for references?

Bottom line: any vendor who sells a dead tree or clearly misrepresents easily identifiable fact will not be in business long regardless of the OP's website. Meanwhile, the OP's website may run legitimate businesses out of business.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Don: you're one of the good guys. Glad to see you posting here, and I'm looking forward to my next opportunity to work with you.

Just stay off the JennyList or we might not be able to talk to you anymore... ;-)
 

JudyB

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Don: you're one of the good guys. Glad to see you posting here, and I'm looking forward to my next opportunity to work with you.


I second this heartily. MY BEST trees have been from Don. And will be again as soon as my next scheme works out...
:)
 

Dan W.

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Uh-oh...a scheming consumer...lol

Maybe we should make a "scheming consumer" list...

Judy, I'm afraid you're first on the list.

In response to the thread, I agree that the bonsai community is very small and in many ways tightly knit. Most everyone who is a vendor in bonsai does so primarily out of their love for bonsai. These vendors are also part of the bonsai community, and I believe they want to be... .this rules out them intentionally doing anything to hurt their reputation or the business.

IndoorJenny, honestly the best thing you can do is to create a site specifically geared toward helping newbies off on the right foot...not making them leery or scared of vendors from the get-go. If you want to help, do so in a positive manner, rather than this negative way. Give people good, honest, Positive advice to help them enjoy bonsai to it's fullest. Make a list of vendors who you know to be good and honest. Make another list of places to go to learn sound teaching on bonsai.
 

IndoorJenny

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sigh

Uh-oh...a scheming consumer...lol

IndoorJenny, honestly the best thing you can do is to create a site specifically geared toward helping newbies off on the right foot...not making them leery or scared of vendors from the get-go. If you want to help, do so in a positive manner, rather than this negative way. Give people good, honest, Positive advice to help them enjoy bonsai to it's fullest. Make a list of vendors who you know to be good and honest. Make another list of places to go to learn sound teaching on bonsai.

Which is exactly the idea I have in mind, but before I get into that, I'd like to first comment on the swirling controversy surrounding my posts about this.

On the one hand, we could perhaps all agree that this is what a forum topic is all about, to share opinions and ideas.

On the other hand, it would appear that many of the people replying to my posts either aren't reading them before they speak up, or don't understand them, and if it's the latter, then it's my fault for either sketching the idea as I post, or for not explaining it better.

Let's try again.

1. I don't think anyone here would disagree that a website, a watchdog group, a club, or whatever you want to call it, that protects the consumer, is a bad idea. After all, this is the Internet where trees are bought and sold every day, and if we're to assume that every seller on the net is honest, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale and I'll make you a good price, oh, and there's a pallet of iPad boxes with bricks inside them too.

2. I don't proceed from the belief, nor has it been my personal experience, that all tree dealers are bad people. In fact, it's just the opposite! I buy trees from some FANTASTIC vendors who stand behind the trees they sell and will even patiently give advice by email. In fact, 80% of the dealers I and friends of mine have purchased from have been incredible and we're very happy with the trees we bought from them.

3. But there's that 20%, and the persons most effected (or stung, or ripped off, or whatever word you want to use) are novices and gift buyers.

4. As I've said before, there are plenty of groups, clubs, etc., for other hobbies that have been successful at doing exactly what I've been sketching out in my posts. Sign up members for free or for a fee (and the fees if any are small, and go to operating costs), elect officers from among the membership, etc.

5. Lastly, I want to stress that again, I've been sketching out the idea here and in HTML code, and whether you like it, don't like it, agree with it, or disagree with it, ultimately, it makes absolutely no difference. Thanks to a little something called free will, I'll either move forward or I won't, and the opinions of a bunch of strangers on an internet forum (of all places) isn't going to deter me. If I do the site and it succeeds and helps the novice or gift buyer, great! If it fails, oh well.

I hope that better explains where I'm coming from.
 

buddhamonk

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So why ask "a bunch of strangers on the internet" for opinions and get all defensive when you receive some negative feedback? If you're gonna do it anyway go ahead. I haven't seen a single person here trying to stop you. Good luck with it!

IMG_2124.jpg
 
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Dav4

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So why ask "a bunch of strangers on the internet" for opinions and get all defensive when you receive some negative feedback? If you're gonna do it anyway go ahead. I haven't seen a single person here trying to stop you. Good luck with it!

IMG_2124.jpg

Hey Buddha, which internet vendor sold you that ume?:p:rolleyes:
 

Redwood Ryan

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1. I don't think anyone here would disagree that a website, a watchdog group, a club, or whatever you want to call it, that protects the consumer, is a bad idea. After all, this is the Internet where trees are bought and sold every day, and if we're to assume that every seller on the net is honest, then I've got a bridge in Brooklyn for sale and I'll make you a good price, oh, and there's a pallet of iPad boxes with bricks inside them too.


I don't think it's so much an issue of the theory behind the site, it's more of you wanting to charge for it. I would never pay money for information that I can easily access via PM to any member of a bonsai forum that frequently buys trees online.
 

JudyB

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Ohhhhh, tooo funny, thanks for the laugh!!!

but really that is a beauty!
 

Stan Kengai

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. . . and whether you like it, don't like it, agree with it, or disagree with it, ultimately, it makes absolutely no difference. Thanks to a little something called free will, I'll either move forward or I won't, and the opinions of a bunch of strangers on an internet forum (of all places) isn't going to deter me. If I do the site and it succeeds and helps the novice or gift buyer, great! If it fails, oh well.

I hope that better explains where I'm coming from.

Yes, this makes it clear as a bell. And just where are you proposing to get all of your information on vendors? Let me guess . . . "strangers on an internet forum". And you've done a fantastic job of alienating the ones on here.
 

jkd2572

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I hope Jenny does not pay too much for the domain name......
 

JudyB

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Well with a name like "Indoor Jenny" it doesn't really speak too much about the vast majority of what bonsai is all about, does it?
 

Vance Wood

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There is another question that has not been asked but I feel it to be critical. How long has this person been doing bonsai? What you read in a book, or hear from a friend or off the INTERNET does not always square with what real hands on experience can teach you. I have over the years encountered many newbies who after a couple of years think they have mastered the art and from that point on no longer think they have anything to learn------till they start losing trees. The point is it is usually not a good idea to be placing yourself in a positions of judging others when in reality, you yourself are only one step above knowing dog poop from shoe polish.
 

bonsaibp

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The $25 fee is just an example. There are other sites that have been successful at forming similar clubs based on the same idea that have protected consumers for decades. Seems to me that anyone who resists the idea of a site that protects buyers and sellers may themselves be one of the types of bad sellers I'm referring to. After all, if you're an honest seller to begin with, why would any honest seller reject such an idea?

Because honest sellers don't need anyone to provide credibility for them- they do it themselves every day they do business. And their customers do it for them even better. Anytime $ becomes involved in being listed as one of the "good" guys I become extremely leery. There are dozens of sites like that, that refer contractors for a fee with no real knowledge of the quality of there work. I know of several people who have been burned badly be such so called consumer protection sites.
 

Vance Wood

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The $25 fee is just an example. There are other sites that have been successful at forming similar clubs based on the same idea that have protected consumers for decades.

Let's examine some of these statements.

There are other sites that have been successful at forming similar clubs bassed on the same idea that have protected consumers for decades.

Please name one and let's discuss whether we are comparing apples to oranges.

Seems to me that anyone who resists the idea of a site that protects buyers and sellers may themselves be one of the types of bad sellers I'm referring to.

This statement is patently offensive, wrong, and wrong headed. It is like having the police come to your door saying they want to search your house. You of course decline the offer and they say you shouldn't mind if you have nothing to hide.


After all, if you're an honest seller to begin with, why would any honest seller reject such an idea?

I would on the very principle of this statement alone, it is coercive, self righteous, and makes demands it has no right to.
 
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