Trident Dug @ Muranaka's

[ColinFraser]

Last October I tagged a Trident Maple in the ground at Muranaka's Bonsai Nursery in Nipomo, CA. Today, it was finally time to bring it home. The first picture is how it looked when I found it, with an apical whip taller than I am. The second is how it looked when I got there today, and the third is George digging it out for me. The last few are just clearer looks at it (though it does continue to flare some beneath the soil).


I'll get it into bonsai mix in the next day or so, and probably make a few pruning decisions at the same time. It's pretty tall and skinny, but I think it could be elegant that way - or, it might get chopped like nearly everything else does and put on the back burner to keep growing.

Not much to see now, but I thought I might like a thread to track its progress. Fire away if you have suggestions, criticisms, etc.

Finally, I just wanted to say that George is a great guy and is always very helpful when I go out there. There are some nice deals to be found too, and this isn't the only tree I came home with today!

 

[ColinFraser]

One more thing to note for those of you still under snow - it's the same sunny shorts-wearing weather in the October pucture that it is in the February picture . . . and most of the year for that matter. I love California!

 

[ColinFraser]

No one's going to pipe up with "off with its head!"? Are you guys feeling ok? I'll just pretend everyone has suddenly decided to go easy on a new guy

Well, someone has to say it. When I tagged the tree last year, it seemed pretty great to me, but as I get more comfortable with proportions that work for Bonsai, it's flaws become more evident. Amazing what a winter of looking at Bonsai online and reading books can do!

I have a few small tridents (about finger diameter), but this is my first one with any size to it. I know if I leave it alone, it will grow a beautiful canopy, and I would enjoy that; however, I may not be able to shake the nagging feeling that I'm wasting a season! As BVF pointed out in another thread, you get more comfortable with more drastic chops as you go along, and perhaps even end up rechopping trees left too tall - a complete waste. I'm not that into "sumo" proportions (right now anyway), but clearly this needs to be shorter and fatter.

Given that it was just dug and repotted, and is just waking up from dormancy, would an airlayer be asking too much of the tree? It does have a nice mat of fine fibrous roots all around the trunk.

 

[barrosinc]

it does seem a bit tall and the first section seems straight, the taper takes its time... Airlayer will set you back a year but will probably give you the tree that you must have thought initially with more taper if you go just above the second branch.

 

[edprocoat]

I was going to say chop it at the bottom branch, but everybody gets so bitchy lately when you give an opinion here.

ed

 

[yenling83]

Hey Good luck with your Trident Colin! Good to see another Central Coaster on the forum. I live about a mile or so away from the Muranaka's place. One option you could do with your trident is air layer it, sometime down the road. This would give you a fantastic start to creating a nice nebari.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

You could wait for it to bud, and airlayer off the top, and then you would have TWO trees

But I will be the first to say... Ed doesn't know what he's talking about Actually I agree with Ed - I don't think it is very convincing as a bonsai with its current height.

 

[ColinFraser]

You could wait for it to bud, and airlayer off the top, and then you would have TWO trees

But I will be the first to say... Ed doesn't know what he's talking about Actually I agree with Ed - I don't think it is very convincing as a bonsai with its current height.

Haha, I might have to cut it into 3 or 4 trees to get the proportions better

 

[Smoke]

Been going to Muranaka's since 1986. Bought my material from Georges father. Since I am not known to be especially diplomatic in how I phrase questions, I will just come out and ask the questions. Being that you have the good fortune to shop "AT" the nursery and actually choose what you get versus buying only what George puts on ebay, I have to ask, why did you tag such a skinny tree? There is so much maple stock in the ground that picking out a tree with taper is easy as pie there. Some people do not wish to have a larger trunk with taper as some like thinner trunks with a flame shaped canopy. There are many trees in pots on the tables there that have great trunks already. A great maple can be chosen there for 40.00 at the most.

Listening to your replies I feel that you have questions about your choice. If the choice was price based I understand.

I picked up this tree last Feb for 85.00. A branch being grafted on.

 

[ColinFraser]

Being that you have the good fortune to shop "AT" the nursery and actually choose what you get versus buying only what George puts on ebay, I have to ask, why did you tag such a skinny tree?

Haha, no worries about diplomacy. It's a teachable moment! The only thing I can say is that I liked the tree at the time, and nothing else in my price range caught my eye that day. I'm also probably still in the "tree fever" stage of a newish Bonsai hobbyist, and I know that sometimes leads to buying something in front of me when I should really just wait for a better opportunity.

Returning this spring, I saw it with fresh eyes (and better trained eyes); however, I'm not unhappy with it as raw material for the price, and I didn't want to back out of my agreement to purchase it (though George is so easygoing, he probably wouldn't care).

Posting it and kind of talking/thinking it through on the forum Is super helpful, so thanks!

I think the base isn't too bad, and I'm not unhappy with the idea of chopping it to around that first branch . . .

 

[Smoke]

Seeing up close with your "eager grip on the wood" shows that the tree is much larger than it looks in the first pictures. I would not hesitate for a chop.

 

[ColinFraser]

Cool; I though that photo might help mitigate the 'stick in a pot' vibe the earlier ones were giving off.

If I decide I want to layer it above the first branch, when would it be best to start? I know tridents are tough, but I don't want to overdo it . . .

 

[Smoke]

Cool; I though that photo might help mitigate the 'stick in a pot' vibe the earlier ones were giving off.

If I decide I want to layer it above the first branch, when would it be best to start? I know tridents are tough, but I don't want to overdo it . . .

Let me take a moment to disect the tree into smaller usable parts for discussion. The tree has been developed in the ground with the use of successive chops for taper. That on its own is Ok if one wants to use the tree in its tall as dug state. With that there are problems. Each segment that was grow out (shown in red chops) was allowed to grow unhindered and lengthen before the next chop was made. Each of these segments has roughly the same diameter througout its length. These segments lead us to view it as man made and ametureish. This is not a reflection on George since he has hundreds if not thousands of trees to tend to and styling each one properly would make each tree cost prohibitive and George fills a good niche in the market. I continue to purchase material from him and will do so. For the price George makes quality material, one just had to know how to deal with it.




So if one were to chop it down, the safe cut would be at the black line just above a branch. This allows the tree to continue growing from this point and successive chops will allow new taper. The portion below is still the same diameter all the way up the trunk to the black line. The tree needs to be lower than that to start the new taper into a convincing shape. The area at the blue line would be better since there is a branch there. A chop at this point will need special attention and some experience at growing out chops to fully recognize when and where on the trunk to do the next step. As far as layers on the portion above a proposed chop, they can be done at any place one wants to do it. There are no rules. I would not do a layer and a chop in the same year. Layer it one year and then chop it the next.

 

[painter]

85 bucks for that tree smoke. man what a tease. that tree would be like 300 bucks if not more here on the other coast.
another 8 inches of snow today as well. with a one day warming trend to 40 degrees tomorrow. the rest of the week 25 degrees as a high.
my spring bonsai shopping may go to my heating bill this year.

 

[edprocoat]

I was lucky enough to find two nice Tridents in Florida in a large (10 squat pot which is a short wide pot just a little over 10 gallons) One looked like yours with a trunk 2 inches across at the soil line for only $25. The other was a clump of 5 Trident fused at the base, an awkward looking clump at best which I clamped closer together hoping to get it to fuse further up the trunks, this one was $45 and the fused base was over 5 inches across. They were both over 7 feet tall. I am going to start a thread here and hopefully Al will step in with his kind, benevolent manner of knowledge sharing and advise me on the future care needed with these. I chopped both these down to the lowest branches they are about 5 inches tall now, did massive root work actually chopping off a section below the soil line where the trunk continued after the first set of roots and screwed them to a circular board I cut leaving about an inch beyond the board to the edge wall of the pot for the roots to grow down into the cheap wal-mart pots I bought for grow out containers. I had no fear doing this much work on these as I have been reading Al's Blog at his bunker faithfully as this guy really knows his stuff, check it out its the finest read I have come across not only posting ideas/techniques as well as opinions, but backing them up with irrefutable proofs of follow-ups in pictures. Quality stuff which has had me desirous of a Trident maple since I clicked on the page over 2 years ago. This is the link which is also at the bottom of his posts in his signature line. http://bonsaial.wordpress.com/ Again, thanks Al for a non bullshit excellent compendium of your knowledge, you are a real champ for sharing this.

ed

 

[amethystearth]

I'd go with the low chop. You've already identified your mistakes in initially choosing it so there isn't much to say about the quality of the material. Honestly who doesn't or didn't have a tree like that. They are great to learn from. I haven't killed all of my first trees yet. Also the trunk is significantly large at the base for you to create a great tree out of this in the long run.

As mentioned by smoke you need to keep taper in mind when performing trunk chops. More taper in a smaller stretch of trunk will create a more compelling image of a strong, large, mature tree.

 

[JoeR]

Been going to Muranaka's since 1986. Bought my material from Georges father. Since I am not known to be especially diplomatic in how I phrase questions, I will just come out and ask the questions. Being that you have the good fortune to shop "AT" the nursery and actually choose what you get versus buying only what George puts on ebay, I have to ask, why did you tag such a skinny tree? There is so much maple stock in the ground that picking out a tree with taper is easy as pie there. Some people do not wish to have a larger trunk with taper as some like thinner trunks with a flame shaped canopy. There are many trees in pots on the tables there that have great trunks already. A great maple can be chosen there for 40.00 at the most.

Listening to your replies I feel that you have questions about your choice. If the choice was price based I understand.

I picked up this tree last Feb for 85.00. A branch being grafted on.View attachment 67901

You got that for $85?

Man, I need to take a trip to California. I would pay $100 and shipping just for someone to pick me out one like that! Seriously, who's going to muranakas?
The same tree here would be much more at the growing grounds, etc.

Back to the tree.

I could see why a newbie would pick this out. If what Smoke said about prices is true, hopefully you didn't pay too much for it. I personally would airlayer it this year, then chop it real low in the next year or so. Why not get as many trees out of it as you can?

 

[Smoke]

I personally would airlayer it this year, then chop it real low in the next year or so. Why not get as many trees out of it as you can?

One has to figure your time and the inability to work on the tree while all the layering is being done to the tree only to end up with a couple of non tapered segments of tree that will take additional chops to improve those. I see this layer out for more trees all the time and its just such a waste of time. If a proper choice was made in the first place there would be absolutely no need for any layers. So if the first choice was iffy at best, why would spending more time to make layers be better? I have no idea about these thoughts from some, but to each his or her own. This guy lives near enough to be able to shop at Muranaka's so getting some choice material is in his future. That I am sure of.

 

[amethystearth]

One has to figure your time and the inability to work on the tree while all the layering is being done to the tree only to end up with a couple of non tapered segments of tree that will take additional chops to improve those. I see this layer out for more trees all the time and its just such a waste of time. If a proper choice was made in the first place there would be absolutely no need for any layers So if the first choice was iffy at best, why would spending the time to make layers be better? I have no idea about these thoughts from some, but to each his or her own. This guy lives near enough to be able to shop at Muranaka's so getting some choice material is in his future. That I am sure of.

some prefer quantity over quality I guess. I'm more partial to your view

 

[Smoke]

some prefer quantity over quality I guess. I'm more partial to your view

I am very jaded because it is cheaper for me to just buy another better piece of material. I do understand why making two trees from one would be prudent for those without easy access to material. But the addage that making something superior to that you bought must still be the measure of success. If not, then becoming a layering expert is in your future while you still move on choosing crappy material in the first place.

I would rather never do a layer, or get better at it, and work with what I bought because I made such a great choice.