Trident Maple ideas?

nover18

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I took a few pictures today of my trident maple that has been growing in the ground for the past 3 years. It's starting to approach the size trunk that I want. Some root work was done in 2010 prior to putting in ground so I'm not quite sure what the roots are like at this point. I was hoping to get some advice on when and where to make the trunk chop. I'm not sure at this point if i'd like to make this into a formal upright or to chop a bit lower and start informal upright. Also, i live in zone 6 so any advice on timing of the trunk chop? The size of the trunk at base is ~7 1/2".
 

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Nybonsai12

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Search the threads by Smoke for some good ideas or PM him for his input. Also check out Brian Van Fleet's threads and blog as he has a similar looking trident project that he has documented his progression and steps very well.

I am not super experienced but if I it were me I think I would dig it in spring to get the roots in order and likely chop it at that time. Let it grow out after that for a while to see how it responds.
 

jk_lewis

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I think I'd chop it this year and dig it next. It looks to me like it should have been chopped some years ago.
 

Dav4

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You're going to have to lose on of those sub trunks at the fork, so I would start there. Look at what you have and try to make your chops so that you have nice consistent taper with some trunk movement as well, if possible. At least that is what I would do. The other option is to just cut the whole thing down to about 4' tall, then dig to eval the nebari, and use THAT to dictate what you keep or remove. It appears to have pretty descent taper already...should be a fun project.
 

Poink88

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I was going to suggest the same as Dave & jkl...just expose the nebari first then decide which branch have to go. Hopefully, the cut will be hidden at the back and you get some form of movement. The remaining branch can then be reduced down to a few inches also.

As jkl suggested...I would keep it where it is until the cuts had time to heal over some and the new branches have thickened. Along the way, start cutting the main roots down to about couple of inches from the trunk. Preferably two 1/6 pie like piece from opposite sides. Then repeat after a year moving to the next pair. You can safely dig it up on the 3rd year and by then, you should have healed cuts and better branches too. :)

Good luck!
 

md4958

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I would do this, and leave it in the ground to re-develop the trunk line
 

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Nybonsai12

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The other option is to just cut the whole thing down to about 4' tall, then dig to eval the nebari, and use THAT to dictate what you keep or remove. It appears to have pretty descent taper already...should be a fun project.

Exactly what I was driving at. I think getting the nebari sorted should help dictate the future of the tree. The more I read the more it is suggested that the tree be build from the ground up. Good luck with it!
 

nover18

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when you say expose the nebari, do you mean expose it while in ground and make my cut now?

or wait until spring as buds swell, do some root work and then decide where to make the cut and return to the ground to develop the movement in the second part of the trunk line?

This tree is well over 25 ft already. Some tough root work with all that attached!
 

md4958

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That looks bad...chopping both branches above the crotch? :confused: IMHO, that is the worst you can do.

The chop would be below the crotch, turning this into three trees. Two with single trunks, and one double. The main tree would be a single, and then the other two would be derived from air-layers.

The lines in the virt were intended to be above the buds that are on either side.
 

Poink88

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when you say expose the nebari, do you mean expose it while in ground and make my cut now?

or wait until spring as buds swell, do some root work and then decide where to make the cut and return to the ground to develop the movement in the second part of the trunk line?

This tree is well over 25 ft already. Some tough root work with all that attached!
If you read my message well, it is very clear.

Expose the nebari by removing some dirt around the base...NOT digging the tree.

Do the work on spring.

Cut the roots as described....with the tree in the ground. Cutting only the 1/6 sliver of roots per side.

Cut the branch as you deemed fit.

Dig the tree on the 3rd year.

BTW, that is just one of many possible approach...do which ever you feel is best for you.
 
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md4958

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That looks bad...chopping both branches above the crotch? :confused: IMHO, that is the worst you can do.

The chop would be below the crotch, turning this into three trees. Two with single trunks, and one double. The main tree would be a single, and then the other two would be derived from air-layers.

The lines in the virt were intended to be above the buds that are on either side.

Here is a shot from where I would envision the new front to be (perhaps rotated clockwise a few degrees would be ideal). Are there going to be huge-ass scars that need to heal, yup... but that's what you have to deal with when you cut a 25ft tree down to 2ft.
 

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Poink88

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Here is a shot from where I would envision the new front to be (perhaps rotated clockwise a few degrees would be ideal). Are there going to be huge-ass scars that need to heal, yup... but that's what you have to deal with when you cut a 25ft tree down to 2ft.

I won't use any of those twigs as leader being on the crotch area...it will just cause problems/headache later (not worth saving). Better to grow new ones a bit higher on the branch itself since they grow fast anyway. JMHO.
 

md4958

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I won't use any of those twigs as leader being on the crotch area...it will just cause problems/headache later (not worth saving). Better to grow new ones a bit higher on the branch itself since they grow fast anyway. JMHO.

Dario, I havent been on this site long, but your opinions are, if anything, far from humble.

Im sorry, but Ive shown you twice that trunk would be chopped. Where exactly would you find a twig higher up if there is no trunk there??
The first virt was for the benefit of Nover18. The second was for the benefit of, well, those with less vision.


Some people seem to be full of advice and short on experience around here.
 

Poink88

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Dario, I havent been on this site long, but your opinions are, if anything, far from humble.
Good job noticing. :)

Im sorry, but Ive shown you twice that trunk would be chopped. Where exactly would you find a twig higher up if there is no trunk there??
The first virt was for the benefit of Nover18. The second was for the benefit of, well, those with less vision.

Some people seem to be full of advice and short on experience around here.

If you've read my message to Nover18, I am not sure yet which one to chop...I want to see the nebari first. IF you want me to assume the front is as you've chosen, I can easily show you where I would chop but I'd rather wait than waste my time on a virt right now. ;)
 

nathanbs

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In my opinion you need to follow these steps in this order:

1)Decide on the overall height you want your finished tree to be.
2)clear away soil at base of trunk to expose nebari to see if there are any areas better or worse than others.
3)once a front has been decided based upon the nebari than you need to make a drastic flat cut at a height determined by the overall finished tree height(this is one of the hardest parts and perhaps takes putting some pen to paper to conceptualize). If nebari is nice than skip step 4 and sawzall into ground to prune roots in a 2' diameter around tree
4)dig up tree and prune all of the bad down facing roots hoping that you have some more appropriate direction roots to keep. If all roots are going downward flat cut them while leaving a little bit of root collar before trunk begins.
5)replant tree in ground on top of a ceramic plate, or tile or anything that will discourage downward growth on the roots.
6)when tree buds out of chopped trunk select a bud to be the new leader and promote the growth to go in an appropriate direction to be a believable continuation of your trunk line. 7)once new leader has started to thicken diagonal cut trunk starting at new leader angling downward to help promote believable taper and transition from old trunk to new leader.
8)Repeat steps 3,6 and 7 until trunk is developed.

At some point when the bulk of the trunk is built the tree can come out of the ground and be finished in a pot. The roots should also be worked every time tree comes out of ground. Sorry if i skipped something and ask if further clarification of any of the steps is needed. Hope this helps
 

md4958

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If you've read my message to Nover18, I am not sure yet which one to chop...I want to see the nebari first. IF you want me to assume the front is as you've chosen, I can easily show you where I would chop but I'd rather wait than waste my time on a virt right now. ;)

We are all on the edge of our seats, Im sure.

I am a co-owner of a cigar based discussion forum, and Id like to share some advice with you I've given to countless noobs over the years:

Sometimes it's ok, NOT to post.



Nover18, I apologize for polluting your thread with non-sense. I think you could have a very nice tree here in time.
 
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Poink88

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We are all on the edge of our seats, Im sure.

I am a co-owner of a cigar based discussion forum, and Id like to share some advice with you I've given to countless noobs over the years:

Sometimes it's ok, NOT to post.

Back at you. :)
 

nover18

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thanks guys... i am taking this all in and sitting back thinking. Wow, i'm glad that i have winter to decide what i want to do in the spring. I think the advice that i'm getting is, and correct me if my conservative approach is misguided, is to wait until spring and expose some of the base of the tree to evaluate the nebari. Since i did some minor root work when planting, i'm a bit nervous as to what i'm going to discover. I think it has developed some nice basal flare in the time it's been planted in the ground and I presume that is from the minor root work done prior to planting. Does anyone have an explanation for returning to the ground instead of putting in a better draining, more suitable growing box of some sort? I'm assuming because it will aid in the recovery/healing process? Wouldn't a grow box give me a bit more control of the development of a shallow and nice radial nebari?
 

Dav4

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Some root work was done in 2010 prior to putting in ground so I'm not quite sure what the roots are like at this point.

I think this is the most important point. I've let tridents grow wild for years at a time, and without getting the roots squared away and staying on top of them, they will get away from you, and you basically have to redo them from scratch. I think you need to get this monster out of the ground to see what's been going on beneath it. Next spring, just as the buds are pushing, I'd chop both main leaders about 4 foot above the soil line, then dig it and pick your front based on the nebari and existing best possible trunk line. Make necessary chops and either plant in a wooden grow box or back in the ground as Nathan suggested.

...and remember...this isn't a race.

edit: ground planted trees are more vigorous then potted, and will heal faster. Growing in a box will give you more control, but a bit less vigor...but it's a trident, so it's going to grow well no matter what.
 
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