hello y’all my name is joe and I received this trident maple a few weeks ago I am wanting to make a nice Shohin tree and just wanted to see if anyone could shed some light on further development. Like we’re to chop it to create movement and taper . Also what style ideas are out there for it . And also branch development ..... thanks
Trident maple ideas
- Thread starter Jo53ph
- Start date
Hack Yeah!
Omono
Joe, I think you'll have to cut to the lowest branches to get nice movement and finish in the shohin size.
MrWunderful
Omono
Assuming your hand is roughly the same size as mine about 7 inches that might be difficult to make a convincing shohin. You would be cutting back to one of the lowest branches.
Shohin are generally under 10” apex to pot. If it was me, branching needs to be re started at the first nodes, or from scratch.
Its a nice chunky little tree, but decide soon if you like the “pine tree style” trident informal upright, or a more natural broom/flame style because that will decide what path you take as far as branch development.
Also, think about ground layering if you arent in love with the roots, they need quite a bit of work unless you like the gnarled look.
Shohin are generally under 10” apex to pot. If it was me, branching needs to be re started at the first nodes, or from scratch.
Its a nice chunky little tree, but decide soon if you like the “pine tree style” trident informal upright, or a more natural broom/flame style because that will decide what path you take as far as branch development.
Also, think about ground layering if you arent in love with the roots, they need quite a bit of work unless you like the gnarled look.
This is going to be my first time chopping the trunk on a trident. If I chop it down to the first branch I wonder how long it would take to reach a third of the thickness of the trunk for the taper . I live in the Toledo Ohio area so the winters are pretty bad we don’t get much for a growing season compared to the south ...
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
There is kind of a nice gradual taper now.
Too much too Long to cut back for shohin.
What's that wrapped peice up there?
It should go!
Sorce
Too much too Long to cut back for shohin.
What's that wrapped peice up there?
It should go!
Sorce
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
I think I agree with Sorce here. Not good to force a tree that is not shohin into the mold. The trunk chop necessary to reduce the height enough to allow an apex to grow will leave a huge scar that will take many years to heal. Far better to start with a trunk with shohin potential. Just grow the best tree you can with the given material rather than trying to force it into some preconceived stereotype. I guess this was purchased sight unseen mail order? In which case you take what you get and make the best of it. If you wanted something specific you really should have discussed that with the supplier in detail before making the purchase.
The straight, leaning trunk does not do it for me I am afraid but if you like it go with it and you can probably use the current trunk line - easiest option. Not sure the roots really go with a straighter trunk but you have what you have.
The roots are not really classic maple nebari but I like the way they grab the soil in pics 1 and 6. Sort of rugged? Different but good. If you could match a short, twisted trunk with them that would be great. That will require a chop to change trunk direction.
Lowest branches are far to low to chop. Get rid of those and look a bit higher for a new leader heading to the left (from pic 1). Possibly just below the broken branch?
The straight, leaning trunk does not do it for me I am afraid but if you like it go with it and you can probably use the current trunk line - easiest option. Not sure the roots really go with a straighter trunk but you have what you have.
The roots are not really classic maple nebari but I like the way they grab the soil in pics 1 and 6. Sort of rugged? Different but good. If you could match a short, twisted trunk with them that would be great. That will require a chop to change trunk direction.
Lowest branches are far to low to chop. Get rid of those and look a bit higher for a new leader heading to the left (from pic 1). Possibly just below the broken branch?
Johnnyd
Shohin
SniffingKrylon
Shohin
I know nothing about the species but I would probably do something like this and see where it takes me after it grows a bunch.
Yes I really appreciate All the input I guess I don’t have to have a Shohin tree 8 in cut and dry I just really want to add some movement and better taper to the tree . I don’t like the way it leans all to one side .
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Many options there, but the first thing I would do would be to put in in a shallower, much wider pot : after a few years, tridents can form a large, flat base when trained in a shallow pot...
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
A large flat base nebari can just as easily be developed in a slightly deeper pot. Just requires proper root pruning and management.
My first choice for this tree would be this
I have added a couple of modifications to the upper trunk chop.
Area circled in yellow - Chopping a trident leaving the opposite branch rarely ends up looking good. Many people do this thinking a branch outside the resulting bend will be good. Actual result is swelling and lack of taper. Far better to make a more sloping cut like my blue line. Taper is far better and should actually heal better. New buds will usually grow from the base of the new leader and one can be developed as the desired opposite branch.
Still a 5 year project but should end up good.
It is good to have some guidance before we offer suggestions. Your preference now reduces the possible solutions.
My first choice for this tree would be this
I have added a couple of modifications to the upper trunk chop.
Area circled in yellow - Chopping a trident leaving the opposite branch rarely ends up looking good. Many people do this thinking a branch outside the resulting bend will be good. Actual result is swelling and lack of taper. Far better to make a more sloping cut like my blue line. Taper is far better and should actually heal better. New buds will usually grow from the base of the new leader and one can be developed as the desired opposite branch.
Still a 5 year project but should end up good.
Yes I really like what your suggesting shibui I think it needs more of a slanted chop. To make the taper better if and doubt I can’t seem to get the branching to grow how I want it too the I could always let some runners grow up top and then run a thread graft or even just graft a whip in the lower places I want it at . I did think about layering the top just to get something out of it .
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Everyone talks about layering the top of tridents but look at what you'll get and what you will lose. Is there even room to get a layer on between the proposed chop and the top?
It will be 6-12 months before you can take off the layer. In the meantime you can't do much with the existing tree. Healing of the chop will be delayed for that time. You will get a small trident maple. there's a big chop there so roots are unlikely to grow in that section - you will have a small trident maple with half nebari and probably a dead patch in the trunk. Layering higher will give a small, thinner trident with little taper or shape. Either of those tridents could be grown from seed in 2-3 years. How much would you pay for such a tree? Is it worth the delay in growing your much better trident?
When would be the best time to do the chop ? Also how many years do you think it would take to get the movement and taper right ? Also would you suggest putting it back in the ground for that part of the development. Or why type of pot would do it best for that ?
MrWunderful
Omono
Mid summer
3-8 yrs
Yes, it will speed up the time it takes
Pot size doesnt matter all that much as long as its not super shallow
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
That's akin to protecting a pimple to keep it!I ask because for me....up there is still useful, or attractive enough with that "muscle" up there, that, an attempt to use it would be thoughtful.
Surprised everyone wants to cut it off.
Seems a bitch to deal with any other way though also.
But I have 0 experience watching trident grow.
Sorce
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
I do most trident trunk chops in winter when I can see what I am doing. Try to avoid bud break but any time after the leaves open is OK too.
I would not put this one back in the ground. They grow too fast and you have little control. At this stage of development it is time to go to a grow pot. That will still allow good growth, some thickening and the new leader to grow enough to assist healing the cut but will allow you some control to direct the new leader and to manage the developing branches.
At this stage it is important to manage developing branches. If they head in awkward direction and thicken there will be no choice but to remove and start over. If they start with long internodes there will be no choice but to remove and start over. Control and management is key at this stage.
The new leader can be allowed to grow free for a year, maybe 2 until it has thickened enough to merge into the thicker trunk below. Then cut quite short (new bend in the trunk and further taper) and allow to grow again. Each cycle allow slightly less growth and more pruning to manage thickening and bends in the new leader.
I can't give you a timeline because I don't know how well you will manage the tree or potential for growth in your area. 3-8 years sound likely but will also depend on what you consider 'right'.
I would not put this one back in the ground. They grow too fast and you have little control. At this stage of development it is time to go to a grow pot. That will still allow good growth, some thickening and the new leader to grow enough to assist healing the cut but will allow you some control to direct the new leader and to manage the developing branches.
At this stage it is important to manage developing branches. If they head in awkward direction and thicken there will be no choice but to remove and start over. If they start with long internodes there will be no choice but to remove and start over. Control and management is key at this stage.
The new leader can be allowed to grow free for a year, maybe 2 until it has thickened enough to merge into the thicker trunk below. Then cut quite short (new bend in the trunk and further taper) and allow to grow again. Each cycle allow slightly less growth and more pruning to manage thickening and bends in the new leader.
I can't give you a timeline because I don't know how well you will manage the tree or potential for growth in your area. 3-8 years sound likely but will also depend on what you consider 'right'.
I considered that taped branch as a new leader. It has great orientation but just slightly too high for that trunk IMHO. By the time you grow the new apex out it will not take advantage of the existing thickness and taper.
