Trident maple with no internodes this year

[karen82]

I've been having a problem with my trident maple this year.
Earlier this spring while it was dormant, I completely barerooted it, did a few thread grafts, then repotted it into a grow box.
It has since leafed out with no internodes at all. The leaves are just all stacked on top of each other, actually touching. I'm worried for its health, even though the leaves themselves look ok, because they can't possibly all get enough light.

I apologize if this isn't the right spot, but I tried the maple forum and no one really could say what was going on besides that it might be stress from repotting or roots drying out a little while I was working on it. But I barely trimmed any roots and I dunked it into water as I worked, so I'm not sure this is the case. It doesn't seem to be the growing conditions as the grafted seedlings are showing normal growth. This tree has shown normal growth other years.

Any idea what causes this and more importantly, what can I do for it? I'm unsure if I should leave it alone, or attempt to thin the leaves out a little so they get light. I definitely want to prevent this in the future although it looks like the growth won't be changing this year. (The brown tips on a few of the grafted seedlings' leaves are from damage to the buds when threading, not health issues, as far as I can tell)

 

[leatherback]

it is re establising roots. Once it is back established it will grow. Patience.

 

[karen82]

I tried to get a few more pictures where I'm holding the leaves out of the way so you can see how densely packed they are.. sometimes a dozen leaves coming from one spot.



And, a newly sprouted, similar little tuft of leaves starting to grow straight off the trunk.

 

[karen82]

I'm happy to be patient if the tree will stay healthy, but I'm just worried it's putting out new, abnormal growth that it can't really survive off of very well; the leaves packed into the middle of the tufts can't be getting much light.

 

[MrWunderful]

I'm happy to be patient if the tree will stay healthy, but I'm just worried it's putting out new, abnormal growth that it can't really survive off of very well; the leaves packed into the middle of the tufts can't be getting much light.

The tree still has a decent amount of photosynthetic mass and that is what is important. One of my tridents did that the first few times I worked it too. Like the above poster said, it should be fine after it establishes roots.

Plus, short internodes are good

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Watch the water...kinda looks like a root issue.

 

[leatherback]

It is why my trident did after I decided to test the theory these are bullet proof. It was a bit sulky for 2 months. Then all of the sudden when it got warm it started shooting.

 

[karen82]

An Update: This Trident is doing the same thing this year. It's had no work of any kind since last spring so it's definitely not reacting to stress or disturbance. The seedling grafts are leafing out and growing normally, too. But the main tree is, again, refusing to grow at all. The leaves are all growing in dense, packed tufts with no space between them,

Any idea what's going on and if this change might be temporary or permanent? I assume it won't grow at all this year again - but maybe next year?


A little background - I purchased this tree, bareroot, in the winter of 2018, Kept it in the unheated garage til it was safe to pot it up and put it outside, It grew and leafed out normally, seemed unbothered by the barerooting and storage. It grew fine in 2019, too. Then in the spring of 2020, I barerooted it, did some thread grafts, and put it in a big grow box. It responded by refusing to grow at all, and instead leafing out without growing, with the weird little dense tufts. The seedlings all grew fine, one even reached about 6 feet tall. I assumed it was due to stress from the barerooting even though it had handled this before.
I was expecting it to be back to normal this year - but it's becoming apparent it's doing the same thing,
It's not a particularly good tree but I've spent enough time and effort on it that I was really wanting to be able to do some development work on it - but can't since it literally can't grow branches.

 

[0soyoung]

I think it needs nitrogen.

 

[Bnana]

It's definitely stressed, not by root pruning as you didn't do that but by something.
That could be lack of water/ anoxic soil/ or lack of nutrients.
What kind of soil do you use? How do you water? How do you fertilize?

 

[karen82]

It's definitely stressed, not by root pruning as you didn't do that but by something.
That could be lack of water/ anoxic soil/ or lack of nutrients.
What kind of soil do you use? How do you water? How do you fertilize?

It's in a standard, free draining bonsai mix with pumice, lava, and pine bark, maybe a little turface. I don't remember if there was anything else. I've been giving it mainly miracle-gro shake n' feed which is a slow release fertilizer that's a mix of organic and inorganic, applied a bit more often than recommended. Last year I also gave it regular liquid miracle-gro every couple weeks. I haven't fertilized much yet this year since it's really just starting to get growing - we had an unusually cold spring. All it's had this year was the shake n feed applied about 2 weeks ago.
I've been watering it thoroughly once a day (when there's no rain) and it's in a pretty big grow box, not a tiny pot that dies out quickly.
Only other stressor I can think of is that deer nipped off the tops of some of the seedlings last winter - but they didn't touch the main tree,

I think it's getting enough water and fertilizer - unless it's having trouble competing with the grafted seedlings? They certainly have been growing well.

Will get some new photos tomorrow, it was rainy today.

 

[karen82]

This is the tree currently, sorry it looks like a jumbled mess with all the seedlings. As you can see it's in a big box with a free draining mix.


Foliage on one of the seedlings, growing normally


Foliage on the main trunk, just leaves with no space between them, same as last year.

The leaves, somewhat to my surprise, actually stayed nice and green all summer last year. No insects or pests and no wilting or browning of the edges. The dead tops of a few of the seedlings are just winter damage since they were sticking above my burlap windbreak.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Looks overpotted to me, how big was the rootball when last repotted?

 

[Adair M]

Ok... trim off the “excess” leaves, and leave two at each node. The tree will want more “solar panels”, and will send out new shoots from the base of the remaining leaves.

It doesn’t “have to” right now because of that spray of leaves.

Some tridents tend to send out sprays instead of shoots. By removing most of the leaves in a spray, it forces it to send out shoots!

 

[karen82]

Looks overpotted to me, how big was the rootball when last repotted?

It IS overpotted, I wanted to let the seedlings grow strongly to help the grafts take. When I repotted it, it was almost filling the pot it was in but not really rootbound yet. The grow box it's in now is at least twice as big. But, there are also 10 seedlings in there. I didn't think overpotting would harm it as long as it was airy and well drained.

 

[karen82]

Ok... trim off the “excess” leaves, and leave two at each node. The tree will want more “solar panels”, and will send out new shoots from the base of the remaining leaves.

It doesn’t “have to” right now because of that spray of leaves.

Some tridents tend to send out sprays instead of shoots. By removing most of the leaves in a spray, it forces it to send out shoots!

Thank you, I will try thinning the tufts to 2 leaves tomorrow. Would you recommend doing anything with the grafted seedlings at the same time, or just let them grow?

 

[leatherback]

I didn't think overpotting would harm it as long as it was airy and well drained.

Interestingly enough.. Overpotting is often worse for the plant than underpotting. Whn a pot is small, frequent water and fertilizer can compensate a lot. When overpotted the risk of overwatering & reduced gass exchange reduce vitality.

 

[Bnana]

This is pretty coarse material do they're is a lot of connected air space, how can has exchange be an issue in such a soil?

 

[leatherback]

This is pretty coarse material do they're is a lot of connected air space, how can has exchange be an issue in such a soil?

not entering this discussion. there is a plethora of scientific studies on optimal container growing. Having pots multiple times the size of the rootball is not the optimal route, certainly not when a tree is not healthy.

 

[Bnana]

Could you give a link to one of these studies for a plant in coarse well draining material. I do hear the overpotting issue frequently and understand it's a problem with soil than can be too wet but not for well draining soil that doesn't become anaerobic. So if you have a link to something that clarifies that issue could you share it?