Trident Maple
- Thread starter tmpgh
- Start date
tmpgh
Shohin
drew33998
Masterpiece
I would air layer, air layer, and air layer. You get the point. Several air layers will produce several awesome trees.
tmpgh
Shohin
No ideas for trying to just use what's there to produce one tree? I get the air layer thing and the thought has crossed my mind, but I'd also like thoughts on building this tree rather than just using it to propagate.
tmpgh
Shohin
davetree
Omono
There's no reason you can't make this into a nice tall tree without layering anything. The tree has a nice base and gradual taper. It would be a lot easier to give advice if it was leafless. From what I can see it has good potential. Do you have a plan in mind ?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Layer layer layer...why would anyone give that advice when you can't even see the whole trunk? This looks like it could make a very nice, tall tree. You'll have to post some more photos after leaf drop in the fall or after you defoliate (if you do).
Chris
Chris
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Fantastic base from that last photo. If you layer or chop, you're looking at several years for the next section to become convincing. Not that it's a good or bad idea, but it would require some time. Either way, looking at that nebari would pass that time pretty nicely.
larlamonde
Shohin
I was also there. This must have been gone. A lot of the material was picked over. Great nebari. Can I ask what you paid for it? What did you think of the display trees?
tmpgh
Shohin
Thanks for the feedback guys.
As for a plan without chopping it, I know it is tough with the leaves on. The taper is gradual until the chop in pic #2 near the apex, where it gets thin in a hurry. Perhaps I will cut the leaves in a few weeks to see better.
I'll study it some tomorrow and see if I can do a virt of what I might do if I keep it whole. To be honest, I have a yard full of stuff that is years away and developing. I'd like something a tad closer to respectable.
As for a plan without chopping it, I know it is tough with the leaves on. The taper is gradual until the chop in pic #2 near the apex, where it gets thin in a hurry. Perhaps I will cut the leaves in a few weeks to see better.
I'll study it some tomorrow and see if I can do a virt of what I might do if I keep it whole. To be honest, I have a yard full of stuff that is years away and developing. I'd like something a tad closer to respectable.
Poink88
Imperial Masterpiece
Depends on what you like...I am on the "finding the smallest nice tree" camp. 
As mentioned, your tree is very nice and can go either way.
As mentioned, your tree is very nice and can go either way.
drew33998
Masterpiece
Eric Group
Masterpiece
"That would be an awfully wide tree"- that really depends on what style he is going for...
I like the base and trunk size... The movement and taper are subtle at best, but pleasing to look at and the branches need a good bit of development. Let that thing grow for a while to fill over the scar... If it is a happy tree (looks like it is!) you should get some nice development/ thickening and a whole lot more to work with on the existing branches, then you can do some judicious pruning and selection in a few months- maybe you wind up with some new buds that run into future branches, or maybe you just improve the existing branches... Regardless, you are moving wood through the tree and getting some branch development underway. It doesn't remove any other options, and improves the tree...
Might see what it looks like leaned to the side a bit. It looks like from the pics if you lean it in the direction of the overly large root- burying it a little deeper- it might even the nebari a bit and accentuate the movement you have while still giving you a balanced tree. Hard to tel, from the pics if a lean that direction works as well with the trunk as I think it would- obviously you should experiment a bit by tipping the pot before making any changes! If you are able to bury that larger root a little deeper, you might consider a much smaller scale little ground layer on that root to break it up a bit and get some radial roots coming off of it, or you could do a couple grafts high up on it...
Regardless- great looking tree! I like it as is, just needs to keep developing!
tmpgh
Shohin
No matter what I will need to do some grafts to improve the nebari. The back side has little to look at root wise and yes, that big one of the right needs to be developed. I did plan on leaning it that way to bury it a bit, but it will still need work either way.
Do you recommend taking cuttings from the tree this season and rooting them to use for thread grafts next year?
Do you recommend taking cuttings from the tree this season and rooting them to use for thread grafts next year?
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
I assume you're talking about thread grafting for new roots? Rooted cuttings would work, but for root grafts I think you could also just use any old trident seedlings, since you won't be using the top growth/leaves as part of the final tree.
As for layering or chopping the trunk - ultimately that could be the best solution for this tree, but I just don't understand how someone could make that decision based on these photos alone. Maybe the owner wants a 3' tall trident! Or as he said, maybe he wants a tree to work on (branches, etc) while his other stock matures. He could always layer this at a later time. One of the easiest things to do on these forums is suggest layering or chopping someone else's tree.
As for layering or chopping the trunk - ultimately that could be the best solution for this tree, but I just don't understand how someone could make that decision based on these photos alone. Maybe the owner wants a 3' tall trident! Or as he said, maybe he wants a tree to work on (branches, etc) while his other stock matures. He could always layer this at a later time. One of the easiest things to do on these forums is suggest layering or chopping someone else's tree.
tmpgh
Shohin
I don't mine that it's three feet tall. I've seen many superb trees that tall, not to imply that I believe my material or talent is superb. My concern is to make a good tree and to develop it a bit faster than stump stock material, of which I have plenty. If this material cannot become a good tree as it stands, then I will indeed layer it off into at least two trees. If it can be a strong tree as it is, then I will try to develop it as it is.
Again, I know that no one can give a definitive answer based on these very leafy and distant photos. I'm just asking folks for some ideas, very general ones, on what some possibilities might be.
So far, I've got the idea that I could develop three or so very nice trees here by air layering. I've also gotten the very good advice that I need to develop the nebari more. Is it fair to say that thread grafts may be the best way to accomplish this?
And I do thank all of you with more experience for taking time to consider my questions.
Terry
Again, I know that no one can give a definitive answer based on these very leafy and distant photos. I'm just asking folks for some ideas, very general ones, on what some possibilities might be.
So far, I've got the idea that I could develop three or so very nice trees here by air layering. I've also gotten the very good advice that I need to develop the nebari more. Is it fair to say that thread grafts may be the best way to accomplish this?
And I do thank all of you with more experience for taking time to consider my questions.
Terry
wireme
Masterpiece
If it were mine I would determine whether or not to develop at current height.
Identify the good and bad.
Good nebari, good enough taper and movement.
Maybe bad chop area, there is the scar and it looks like too many branches in the chop area. This may be meant to heal the chop but looks like it will create inverse taper bulging there, probably already has?
When you identify the bad can you fix it? Ie carving and healing, sacrifice growth below inverse taper, uro carving etc?
If you cannot within your timeframe fix any features that disturb you with the tall tree design I'd say chop or layer. I would hope to keep it tall myself though, I like big tall trees.
Identify the good and bad.
Good nebari, good enough taper and movement.
Maybe bad chop area, there is the scar and it looks like too many branches in the chop area. This may be meant to heal the chop but looks like it will create inverse taper bulging there, probably already has?
When you identify the bad can you fix it? Ie carving and healing, sacrifice growth below inverse taper, uro carving etc?
If you cannot within your timeframe fix any features that disturb you with the tall tree design I'd say chop or layer. I would hope to keep it tall myself though, I like big tall trees.
drew33998
Masterpiece
A good approach
drew33998
Masterpiece
tmpgh
Shohin
Drew, I like that very much.
As for the chop area, I'll have to look at it again to really see if inverse taper has happened yet. If so, I will likely chop it again at an angle which suits the nebari/front better and regrow that top portion. Regardless, I'm going to cut most of the branches from around the chop to stop any further swelling. That chop isn't going to heal anyway, it's quite large.
As for the chop area, I'll have to look at it again to really see if inverse taper has happened yet. If so, I will likely chop it again at an angle which suits the nebari/front better and regrow that top portion. Regardless, I'm going to cut most of the branches from around the chop to stop any further swelling. That chop isn't going to heal anyway, it's quite large.
