Trident seedlings planted through tiles, progression thread

[small trees]

I have a thread on this in the general discussion forum but have been meaning to get it in the right spot. So here we go. I have taken several seedlings over the past couple of years and planted them through either wood planks or sheet metal and then placed them in the ground to grow and hopefully develop nice radial nebari.

The general idea is that you drill a hole through the plank/metal and thread the seedling through in the spring as buds are swelling but leaves have not opened yet. This needs to be done with a young seedling as you obviously cannot very well thread a tree through a small hole if it has branches.

As the tree grows, it will be girdled and should throw roots above the plank.











Once the roots above the plank are enough to support the tree, you can remove the plank and everything underneath it.






In this thread I will be posting several trees that I am employing this method on and try to catalog their progress.

 

[small trees]

One of my favorite examples so far is this tree. After one growing season, it looked like this:





This year, I let it continue to grow. In mid-July, it had put on some more nice growth:





In late August, I shortened a few roots. I have not removed the lower roots from the tree yet so I will probably be giving this tree its first chop and round of root work this spring, although I am unsure of the direction I want to go with the tree. The nebari would lend itself to a formal upright almost but I am just not sure. This tree was inspired by BVF's 2010 Maple project tree thread so I may take a page or two from his book on this one.

 

[small trees]

This is one of the first trees that I placed through sheet metal. This picture was taken a couple months ago, so roughly a year and half of a growing season. It was a pencil sized cutting and if this is any indication of how the trees respond to the sheet metal, I like it. My theory is that the sharpness of the metal edges vs wood make the tree callous more quickly. Anyway, this one is probably good to stay in the ground for a couple more years as i separated the bottom of the tree this spring.







I have a few more that have been chopped already and I'll try to post pics of them, but it may be better off to show those in the spring when they get root work.

 

[Woocash]

Nice, thanks for this. I thought I understood how to do it when I read about the method, but seeing the pictures affirms it. I have a couple of young JM so maybe one or two will get this treatment. How deep do you plant it to ensure you get roots forming above the girdle?

 

[small trees]

Nice, thanks for this. I thought I understood how to do it when I read about the method, but seeing the pictures affirms it. I have a couple of young JM so maybe one or two will get this treatment. How deep do you plant it to ensure you get roots forming above the girdle?

Usually no more than an inch or so of soil on top of the plank. Too much more and the tree will throw roots above the plane you are trying to create.

 

[Adair M]

Your general methodology is good, but it would work even better for you if you would have dug them up sooner. As it is, you have a few large, heavy roots, rather than numerous smaller but more evenly and consistently placed radial roots.

By removing the tree from the plate, new roots will emerge from the scar if you pack in some spaghnum moss. And, that flat section could be screwed to a board to continue building the spreading nebari. See @Markyscott’s excellent thread “Ebihara Maples” for more info.

 

[small trees]

Your general methodology is good, but it would work even better for you if you would have dug them up sooner. As it is, you have a few large, heavy roots, rather than numerous smaller but more evenly and consistently placed radial roots.

By removing the tree from the plate, new roots will emerge from the scar if you pack in some spaghnum moss. And, that flat section could be screwed to a board to continue building the spreading nebari. See @Markyscott’s excellent thread “Ebihara Maples” for more info.

That's a very good thought. I plan on doing this with a few seedlings every year so I can definitely change my methodology. So you are saying that once a few roots have popped out and there is the bulbous scar tissue, go ahead and separate then?


Edit: I think I've read the ebihara thread before but it has been a while, definitely time for a refresher. It may take a while though, 572 replies!

 

[Adair M]

That's a very good thought. I plan on doing this with a few seedlings every year so I can definitely change my methodology. So you are saying that once a few roots have popped out and there is the bulbous scar tissue, go ahead and separate then?


Edit: I think I've read the ebihara thread before but it has been a while, definitely time for a refresher. It may take a while though, 572 replies!

Yes, probe down and see if you’re getting roots above the plate or washer or whatever you’re using. There’s no benefit to keeping it in there any longer than necessary. The sooner you remove the bottom roots, the sooner the radial roots will grow and make the base wider. And, by lifting and pruning back the heavier roots early, the smaller roots will have a chance to catch up. Yes, it might take a wee bit longer to develop trunk caliper, but you’ll get a much higher quality nebari.

By the way, Matt Ouwinga (who has the best tridents in the country) starts his seedlings growing thru a washer. The ones about a big as a 50 cent piece. That’s enough to get the radial roots started. From there, onto a board!

 

[small trees]

Yes, probe down and see if you’re getting roots above the plate or washer or whatever you’re using. There’s no benefit to keeping it in there any longer than necessary. The sooner you remove the bottom roots, the sooner the radial roots will grow and make the base wider. And, by lifting and pruning back the heavier roots early, the smaller roots will have a chance to catch up. Yes, it might take a wee bit longer to develop trunk caliper, but you’ll get a much higher quality nebari.

By the way, Matt Ouwinga (who has the best tridents in the country) starts his seedlings growing thru a washer. The ones about a big as a 50 cent piece. That’s enough to get the radial roots started. From there, onto a board!

Thank you, that is a perfect answer. That leads me to another question that I was already going to ask. Washer method as well as planting on a board, if these trees are in development in the ground won't you need to check in on the roots and make adjustments more than once a growing season? I imagine that the board trees may have the roots escape and try to grow downward, and the washer method would probably mean that it would need to be separated after a month or two.


Edit: this may not ever come to fruition but I would love to come to one of your classes sometime. Is there a schedule anywhere? Or a club meeting I could just sit in on? I live about 4 hours away but you guys are the best resource I have anywhere nearby.

 

[Adair M]

Thank you, that is a perfect answer. That leads me to another question that I was already going to ask. Washer method as well as planting on a board, if these trees are in development in the ground won't you need to check in on the roots and make adjustments more than once a growing season? I imagine that the board trees may have the roots escape and try to grow downward, and the washer method would probably mean that it would need to be separated after a month or two.


Edit: this may not ever come to fruition but I would love to come to one of your classes sometime. Is there a schedule anywhere? Or a club meeting I could just sit in on? I live about 4 hours away but you guys are the best resource I have anywhere nearby.

Once on the board, the roots will grow across the board until they reach the edge, and then they will grow straight down. The process is to dig it up every year, cut back, rearrange the roots, and bury it back. Once a year is fine.

 

[jmw_bonsai]

Awesome post! Ive got a couple hundred Acer palmatum over washers. Been in ground for 3 or so years. Ill probably dig them up this winter.
Ill be interested to keep up with this post and try to start one with my maples.

 

[small trees]

Awesome post! Ive got a couple hundred Acer palmatum over washers. Been in ground for 3 or so years. Ill probably dig them up this winter.
Ill be interested to keep up with this post and try to start one with my maples.

I'd be interested to see what you have cooking. Definitely post whatever pics you have.

 

[cmeg1]

Getting nice results!
I love ground layering and girdling techniques.I especially want to make seedling cuttings just below branch clumps to make multi trunk clumps.

Ive got several in ground on inverted clay saucers a season now....and am experimenting with the newer ideas indoors hydroponically indoors this winter.

 

[small trees]

Those elms will grow like weeds! They should fuse in no time. Be sure to secure them to the saucer somehow or those roots will just push down on the saucer and raise the trunk up instead of growing flat.

 

[cmeg1]

Those elms will grow like weeds! They should fuse in no time. Be sure to secure them to the saucer somehow or those roots will just push down on the saucer and raise the trunk up instead of growing flat.

Yea I better do that this spring when I root prune.
Little seedlings layers or girdles.
I am going to try it on younger seedlings this winter in a propogator.In the humid propogater I should not need a secondary pot.They root in a week or so.I may also girdle first and then plant like cuttings after they swell.
I am also trying different species like various maples and hornbeam seedlings!
Indoor experimenting in the hydro room.Its cool!
Good luck with your endeavours.

 

[jmw_bonsai]

I'd be interested to see what you have cooking. Definitely post whatever pics you have.

Will do. When I dig up this winter, ill get lots of pictures. Ive got lots of things going on, LOL. Got several hundred maple cuttings I need to start potting up.

 

[jmw_bonsai]

Yea I better do that this spring when I root prune.
Little seedlings layers or girdles.
I am going to try it on younger seedlings this winter in a propogator.In the humid propogater I should not need a secondary pot.They root in a week or so.I may also girdle first and then plant like cuttings after they swell.
I am also trying different species like various maples and hornbeam seedlings!
Indoor experimenting in the hydro room.Its cool!
Good luck with your endeavours.

That root system is insanely good!!! Nice job!

 

[small trees]

I'm excited to work this one next spring. I hate to chop it but I think the nebari can be nice if I work it like Adair mentioned. Coincidentally this is one that I did separate early like Adair suggested. Pic is kinda hard to see since roots are same color as soil but you get the idea. A couple large roots do need to be reduced a lot but it's a lot more in balance than some of the others.

 

[jmw_bonsai]

I'm excited to work this one next spring. I hate to chop it but I think the nebari can be nice if I work it like Adair mentioned. Coincidentally this is one that I did separate early like Adair suggested. Pic is kinda hard to see since roots are same color as soil but you get the idea. A couple large roots do need to be reduced a lot but it's a lot more in balance than some of the others.

View attachment 269054

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, that base is sexy!

 

[small trees]

I'm excited to work this one next spring. I hate to chop it but I think the nebari can be nice if I work it like Adair mentioned. Coincidentally this is one that I did separate early like Adair suggested. Pic is kinda hard to see since roots are same color as soil but you get the idea. A couple large roots do need to be reduced a lot but it's a lot more in balance than some of the others.

View attachment 269054

Bumping this thread to ask a question. I am probably going to dig this tree next spring and work the roots. However, as you can see from this picture there are no low branches to cut to for a leader. The tree is about 6 feet tall right now and I think it definitely needs to be chopped if I work the roots extensively. Which leads me to my question: Do you guys think it is better to chop high at the only branch you can see in the photo and hope for lower budding, or should I thread graft a lower branch to use as a new leader and work roots and chop after that has taken?