jimlau
Shohin
How do you know when a trident maple's branch is mature enough to use for a thread graft?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Trident Thread Graft
- Thread starter jimlau
- Start date
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
You can thread graft with shoots of any age.
Younger shoots grow quicker but are more delicate to thread through the hole and can be killed by trying to strip bark.
Older shoots are getting hard/brittle so prone to snapping if you bend it to get to the hole. Much easier and safer to strip some bark if you decide to do the graft that way. The thicker the branch the larger the hole will need to be. Don't underestimate the hole size required. Buds at nodes make a shoot much thicker than it appears. Threading a shoot through a small hole only results in all the dormant buds being stripped off.
I usually start bending young shoots into position while still green and flexible to reduce chances of snap then wait until the bark turns brown to do the actual graft.
Younger shoots grow quicker but are more delicate to thread through the hole and can be killed by trying to strip bark.
Older shoots are getting hard/brittle so prone to snapping if you bend it to get to the hole. Much easier and safer to strip some bark if you decide to do the graft that way. The thicker the branch the larger the hole will need to be. Don't underestimate the hole size required. Buds at nodes make a shoot much thicker than it appears. Threading a shoot through a small hole only results in all the dormant buds being stripped off.
I usually start bending young shoots into position while still green and flexible to reduce chances of snap then wait until the bark turns brown to do the actual graft.
erich_raudebaugh
Shohin
Shibui is correct. I wait one or two years, just because it usually takes about that long to get a branch the correct length. More time, as Shibui said, runs the risk of having a brittle branch. During the growing season you can position the branch about where you want it with a loose zip-tie or wire.
Tieball
Masterpiece
Follow up question @Shibui possibly for the poster and definitely for me.
You mentioned that the grafted branch can be killed when stripping off the bark. I was under the impression that a thread graft did not have bark stripped for the grafting process. So, does a thread graft actually require bark stripping? …precisely where the two cambium layers are to meet?
You mentioned that the grafted branch can be killed when stripping off the bark. I was under the impression that a thread graft did not have bark stripped for the grafting process. So, does a thread graft actually require bark stripping? …precisely where the two cambium layers are to meet?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
This is what I do when grafting. I understand for thread grafting it can be left out, but is most often done on the side which you press against the side of the hole.
erich_raudebaugh
Shohin
I don't bother scraping the bark, the pros I know don't either. Shibui may be referring to accidentally scraping bark when threading the donor branch, the biggest problem is avoiding knocking off buds. Be sure to time it right and do it early, or else wait until summer or late spring, and defoliate the branch first.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Some growers prefer to take a strip of bark off the scion where it exits the hole in the tree. This causes both the tree and the scion to callus as they heal. It is callus that unites to join a graft so placing both pieces close together encourages the developing callus to grow together quicker. We usually scrape some bark off the under side of the scion and then press it down against the bottom of the hole so the developing callus will be close together. Initial graft union can be as quick as a just a few weeks but we generally leave the graft together for up to a year to ensure better graft union before chopping.
The wounds do not need to be in intimate contact like other grafts because both parts are independently supplied with sap so they stay alive as long as it takes for the callus to heal to the point where they both come into contact and a union is formed. The closer we can align them the quicker it happens but the process of thread graft allows for error in placement and technique.
Thread grafts will still unite without wounding the scion. This relies on the scion growing thicker inside the hole and the hole forming callus at both sides. Eventually the scion is constricted as it thickens and the hole you drilled gets smaller. Eventually the restriction forces the scion to produce callus at the entry and exit points and, hopefully, the callus from the constricted scion and healing hole will join. This process will take longer but still works most of the time.
The wounds do not need to be in intimate contact like other grafts because both parts are independently supplied with sap so they stay alive as long as it takes for the callus to heal to the point where they both come into contact and a union is formed. The closer we can align them the quicker it happens but the process of thread graft allows for error in placement and technique.
Thread grafts will still unite without wounding the scion. This relies on the scion growing thicker inside the hole and the hole forming callus at both sides. Eventually the scion is constricted as it thickens and the hole you drilled gets smaller. Eventually the restriction forces the scion to produce callus at the entry and exit points and, hopefully, the callus from the constricted scion and healing hole will join. This process will take longer but still works most of the time.
Tieball
Masterpiece
@leatherback @erich_raudebaugh @Shibui Thanks for clarifying the thread graft process. I appreciate the time you set aside to further explain this to me.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
All in for making bonsai great !
jimlau
Shohin
A reason I asked when can u thread graft is the next generation buds have to be developed enough to be able to grow out without any leaves in front of them. Sounds like with tridents that is pretty early on in the branch growing?
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Buds on trident always seem to be able to grow, does not seem to matter how old or mature. If I defoliate a shoot, buds will pop at all nodes rather than only at older nodes.
jimlau
Shohin
What do you use to press the branch against 1 side of the drilled hole? Something that will become a permanent part of the graft?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
toothpick or the like.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Or a small piece of branch selected for correct thickness. Sometimes the bark grows over the extra piece, sometimes it gets pushed out of the hole as it heals. In any case that piece does not form part of the graft.
jimlau
Shohin
How is it not part of the graft? If not pushed out, the hole it is in will fill up against it, right? Does that mean that part of the hole will not graft the shoot to the trunk?
Thanks.
Tieball
Masterpiece
That’s a good question. I hope you, and now me, get an answer.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
THe hole never heals. It is just that the donor expands, and fills it. The only grafting (merging of tissue) happens at the cambium level, so n the outside. Over time, the bark will grow over all the messiness below, but it will still be there.
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Only living pieces can become part of a graft. The wedge has no connection to the tree or the scion so it will die. It may still be inside the tree, just as a forgotten piece of wire might be swallowed by the bark but won't be a living part of the tree.
Trees can grow over all sorts of stuff without it becoming part of the tree.
Here's a photo of stuff inside a redwood we were milling this week. Old electricity lines, a steel bolt and insulators were completely swallowed by the growing tree. Fortunately the wires were showing through the trunk so we did not damage the saw.
Would you call any of that part of a graft?
Tieball
Masterpiece
Yikes! That would destroy a saw blade. I’ve mostly just seen barbed wire swallowed up by a tree.
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