Truly disapointing

[rockm]

I don't know what I really expected arguing with fanatics, but the back and forth at Linday Farr's FB page concerning an article on wild tree collection has me truly depressed. Where once I believed I was being a thoughtful, conservative collector of trees, I am apparently an unscrupulous, clueless desire and impulse-driven environmental rapist.

I have lost just about all respect for Farr and any hope for any reasoned, pragmatic discussion about collecting in general. You're either for an all out ban on collecting anything, or you're a worthless stupid wanton capitalist intent on buying a 10,000 year old tree while hunting down captive lions.

SMGDH...

 

[M. Frary]

, I am apparently an unscrupulous, clueless desire and impulse-driven environmental rapist.

In that case they would absolutely hate me.
Don't take that crap. Give them a taste of Mr. Cranky Pants!
Then go dig a tree up and post it.
I caught hell on another forum last spring because I posted I dug up close to 200 trees.
I then told them how many I killed in my line of work. Food for thought you might say.
There are thousands of innocent trees being killed in the name of progress each day. Not to even count the ones that go up in smoke out west. So what bonsai collected dig up is just a drop in the bucket. Might even save a tree or two from certain destruction by collecting them.
Makes me want to start a Facebook account to verbally slap some people around.

 

[Paradox]

I am not against collecting. I hope to be able to do it myself someday. I do have a few pitch pine seedlings I collected 2 or 3 years ago.

I do believe there is and should be consideration for responsible collection practices which may include how many trees how often from a particular area as well as how you leave the area when done collecting etc.

 

[rockm]

I am not against collecting. I hope to be able to do it myself someday. I do have a few pitch pine seedlings I collected 2 or 3 years ago.

I do believe there is and should be consideration for responsible collection practices which may include how many trees how often from a particular area as well as how you leave the area when done collecting etc.

Well, yeah. I believe that also. However, to a vocal group even that isn't enough. According to more than a few of those posting over there, there ANY collection is irresponsible.

 

[Dav4]

I read Lyndsay's post, along with all the subsequent posts, and all I can say is that you picked a losing battle in trying to change the position of the anti-collectors, but I think you knew that going in. Facts and logic do little to sway those who view "nature" and "the wild" in such a utopic manner. As Dusty Kraft (I think) pointed out, these people are hypocrits if they use any wood based products...and who doesn't. Anyway, I applaud your efforts, and keep it up!

 

[aml1014]

I also am not against collecting as said before there's a time, a place, and a tree. Don't go dig up a 300 year old juniper for your first time you need practice and experience before you attempt collecring an old tree, in the meen time get help from experienced people collecting younger material where it may be in abundance.

 

[Paradox]

I hear the same arguments in the realm of fisheries. No matter what you say some people will never change their point of view. You can't educate someone that has already made up their mind. Save yourself the aggravation and ignore them.

 

[rockm]

I was prepared for emotionally-driven arguments (mostly devoid of fact and reason), but completely unprepared for the level of ignorance of those opposed to collection.

Several of them, including Farr, throw around terms like keeping "high alpine" and "coastal" areas off limits, without considering the specifics of those terms. Ask them what those terms mean (or point out that technically, THERE AREN'T ANY TREES in high alpine areas--alpine zones being above the tree line) and you will get smug "we know it when we see it" responses and insults about how obtuse you're being by asking for details.
"The parameters seem arbitrary to you, but to me and other like minded people they make perfect sense," actual response to my question about what qualifies as an "off limits" location.

 

[coh]

I don't know what I really expected arguing with fanatics, but the back and forth at Linday Farr's FB page concerning an article on wild tree collection has me truly depressed. Where once I believed I was being a thoughtful, conservative collector of trees, I am apparently an unscrupulous, clueless desire and impulse-driven environmental rapist.

I have lost just about all respect for Farr and any hope for any reasoned, pragmatic discussion about collecting in general. You're either for an all out ban on collecting anything, or you're a worthless stupid wanton capitalist intent on buying a 10,000 year old tree while hunting down captive lions.

SMGDH...

Well, that was a fun read (the facebook "discussion"). You represented your views pretty well.

I have mixed feelings on the subject. Obviously there are places where one should be able to collect freely - areas about to be developed, for instance, or under powerlines where trees are constantly cut or poisoned. The more delicate terrain in the higher elevations, where things grow slowly, is a different story. I'm OK with limited responsible collecting (take only what you can care for, clean up, etc). But I don't believe collectors should come in and basically clean out a region. I don't know if it's true, but I have heard stories about certain locations out west that have been "picked clean".

Chris

 

[j evans]

Don't collect them, let them stay in the wild and then guess what, we will watch them burn out here. It appears that our fire fighting methods are terribly in efficient or lack the ability or foresight to squash the fires when they are small and manageable. Can't please everyone. Be responsible and do what you think is right and you will be ok in my book.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I do believe there is and should be consideration for responsible collection practices which may include how many trees how often from a particular area as well as how you leave the area when done collecting etc.

That consideration is made by the BLM and the NFS, and permits are issued to responsible collectors, who collect in areas designated.

When you go out there, it becomes painfully obvious that what we do, if collecting responsibly, can have no measurable impact on the environment. And any if the windbags who say otherwise haven't been out there, or are ignorant.

Mark: Rock on! I don't care who doesn't like it, I love collecting, I do it legally and without any moral conflict.

 

[rockm]

I also found it funny that most of those who oppose collecting had never done it, have any real knowledge of how it was done, or had even seen the areas in the article they're so concerned about. Their reference point for what collecting is seems to be the cliff scene in "Karate Kid II"

I also happen to believe delicate ecosystems should be left alone and that a few collectors have cleaned out some areas (and they are the small exception).

However, I believe after talking with the opponents of collection they have much in common with PETA, puritans and other inflexible, unimaginative, literalists in that they want to ban ALL collection (because they know what's good for the rest of us)

I will to my last gasp, push back at such crap.

 

[thumblessprimate1]

Don't collect them, let them stay in the wild and then guess what, we will watch them burn out here. It appears that our fire fighting methods are terribly in efficient or lack the ability or foresight to squash the fires when they are small and manageable. Can't please everyone. Be responsible and do what you think is right and you will be ok in my book.

 

[ColinFraser]

Catch and release maybe

 

[Zach Smith]

Good post, Mark. This is another of those topics that comes up a few times a year, and I usually don't bother to join the conversation as I've been there many times and it gets tiring. Invariably, there's a serious lack of reasoned discourse on the subject. I blame this on the growth of the environmental religion over the past 50 years or so. Critical thinking is replaced with emotion, as grown-up children argue, rant and in many areas of life resort to violence to get their way.

Is it all right to collect trees from the wild for bonsai? Of course it is, as long as you have permission from the landowner. Is it all right to collect lots and lots of trees from the wild, and - gasp! - even profit from it? Of course it is. Is it all right to collect trees from the wild and kill them, either through ignorance or bad luck? Of course it is. Do some people ignore the rules? Of course some do. Should all of us be punished for it? Of course not.

It's not likely the arguments will go away, unfortunately. But no matter, I plan to collect as many trees as I can before I depart or they outlaw the practice.

Zach

 

[GrimLore]

Over the last several years I have collected 10 or so. In those same several years I have planted over 200. I could not bring them(the 200)to this property for lack of space and ironically if I was able they would have died like all else did here this past Spring. Either way the 10 or so collected properly did not require I replant - it was just my situation. I feel no moral obligation if legal obligations are met anytime, anyplace... The same people would probably find other faults in me like, smokes, drinks, eats red meat, etc... pfffffffffffffffffft

Grimmy

 

[GGB]

Over the last several years I have collected 10 or so. In those same several years I have planted over 200. I could not bring them(the 200)to this property for lack of space and ironically if I was able they would have died like all else did here this past Spring. Either way the 10 or so collected properly did not require I replant - it was just my situation. I feel no moral obligation if legal obligations are met anytime, anyplace... The same people would probably find other faults in me like, smokes, drinks, eats red meat, etc... pfffffffffffffffffft

Grimmy

I second GrimLore. If you plant trees, especially native ones, you're allowed to take a few.

 

[Nybonsai12]

I never have but wish i could go on a collecting trip. We should organize a BNUT collecting trip for 2017!!
I don't really understand the opposition when it is done with permits in proper places.

 

[Txhorticulture]

I come down somewhere in the middle here. If you collect a common field grown type item from private property with permission froM a drainage tract owned by the city, a railroad right of way, or a flood plain owned by the utility company or something like that then who cares.

I go back and forth about professional Yamadori collection in a national forest. I know they issue permits but to me there is a big difference between a drought ridden stand of Doug fir that a timber company harvests and a 300 year old limber pine clinging to life on a sheer rock face at 15000 feet. The difference is the Doug fir stand is a fire waiting to happen and Will grow again. Once that little pine is taken it is gone forever. It was a unique thing that just isn't going to happen in that place again.

I was reading an interview on the kaizen bonsai blog and the interviewer asked if we should be worried about exhausting Yamadori type trees ... I think he responded something like 'not in our lifetime' That struck me as a little too cavalier. I think we all need to think about a lot further down the road then our own lifetimes.

Just my two cents

 

[aml1014]

I also think it's funny us collectors are "environmental rapist" but the person on the Internet saying this to us is using electricity which in turn comes from coal burning which makes everyone and anyone using electricity an "environmental rapist" just food for thought.