Trunk chop after defoliation

[gilly24]

In general, is it wise to do a trunk chop after defoliation (a planned trunk chop obviously) so the regrowth energy doesn't get wasted on parts of the tree that are unwanted?

I've recently defoliated a tree and am intending on chopping it around half way. Above the intended cut there are a lot of branches. Is keeping the top useful to have after defoliation, or will a chop help it recover quicker?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Huh?

 

[Forsoothe!]

Actually, in Aussieland, down is up, right? Wait a minute. If they're down-under, then being up-over makes sense, right?

 

[gilly24]

I'll rephrase. Which is better for the health of the tree:

1. Defoliation and trunk chop simultaneously

2. Defoliation, then wait for regrowth, then trunk chop

 

[Clicio]

I've recently defoliated a tree and am intending on chopping it around half way.

I don't get it.
Why did you defoliate it?
What was your intention?
Smaller leaves?
A new flush of growth before summer?
Which species?

 

[Clicio]

I'll rephrase. Which is better for the health of the tree:

1. Defoliation and trunk chop simultaneously

2. Defoliation, then wait for regrowth, then trunk chop

There's a sure answer for your question:
It depends.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Defoliation and chopping both steal energy from the tree. You do both at different times, and for different reasons, never at the same time.

 

[sorce]

Skip defoiloating.

Pics!

Sorce

 

[j evans]

He must be a politician, always saying something but you can't quite make sense of it.

 

[Shibui]

You are over thinking this. Just get on and do the trunk chop if it is needed. You can prune most trees whether you have defoliated or not. I don't think it will make any difference. BTW, what species is the tree in question?

I am also not sure why you would defoliate a tree that is at the stage of needing a trunk chop though. Some beginners seem to think that defoliation is a necessary part of bonsai or that does magic things to bonsai.
Truth is defoliation does very few of the things it was supposed to do.

 

[Clicio]

Truth is defoliation does very few of the things it was supposed to do.

@Shibui that's an interesting comment, could you tell us a bit more about it?

 

[Shibui]

The original myth is that after defoliation leaves will be smaller. I have Japanese maples where the second leaves are equally as big as the originals after defoliation.
In my experience smaller leaves are the result of having lots of growing shoots - ramification. Ramification is best developed by more trimming. If the tree grows well you get extra chances to trim and produce more ramification and therefore smaller leaves. Defoliation slows growth and limits the chances for extra ramification so actually counterproductive.
Defoliation is supposed to stimulate new buds and more shoots to enhance ramification but if the terminal buds are left intact the shoots often just extend with few buds further back. Defoliating in conjunction wit tip pruning is better but the tree usually responds almost the same but quicker when the leaves are left and just trim the shoots.

There's probably more mythical reasons for defoliation but I can't think of them at the moment. Anyone care to suggest any?

Selective defoliation is valuable for a number of reasons but rarely do full defoliation any more.

 

[Clicio]

The original myth is that after defoliation leaves will be smaller.

Well, I have defoliated a Ficus for three years in a row and the leaves didn't reduce substantially, if at all.
So I have the same experience as you with another species.
Different from decandling JRP and JBP in mid summer, which works.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I used defoliation and tip pruning at the same time to reduce the size of leaves and it works for me. The two in combination decrease leaf size by increasing ramification and forcing the tree to put up another whole canopy without having a whole year to store resources. I do it the last two weeks of June, by which time the tree has matured the first canopy and the follow-on buds in the axils, and the tree has enough summer left to do it all over again. It is problematic to do it too early, too late, or not in combination. If done at the end of the quiet period in early spring when the tree has all its stored resources available, or late in summer when the tree will not leaf-out again until the following spring, it probably wouldn't accomplish anything. It may or may not work if only done once. I have done it in successive years on many species and that may be the trick. here is an example from this year:

 

[Shibui]

Well, I have defoliated a Ficus for three years in a row and the leaves didn't reduce substantially, if at all.

Ficus have different growth system. First leaf on any shoot is small. next is larger and so on to full size leaf at about 5th or 6th node. Small leaves are not from defoliation but from constantly cutting back to just above the first or second leaf on every shoot. New shoots pop from leaf axils and have small first leaf and so on.
Defoliating ficus but leaving the terminal bud intact does almost nothing. The terminal bud opens with the pre programmed full size leaf and few of the defoliated nodes sprout. defoliation in conjunction with cutting back terminals can work OK for ficus.

I used defoliation and tip pruning at the same time to reduce the size of leaves and it works for me. The two in combination decrease leaf size by increasing ramification and forcing the tree to put up another whole canopy without having a whole year to store resources.

Are you talking complete defoliation? I have found the same thing happens without that. Selective defoliation produces the same results. Just remove the largest leaves as they appear and eventually the spring flush abates and new leaves are smaller.

 

[Clicio]

Defoliation in conjunction with cutting back terminals can work OK for Ficus.

Thanks Shibui, it makes perfect sense,

 

[Forsoothe!]

Are you talking complete defoliation? I have found the same thing happens without that. Selective defoliation produces the same results. Just remove the largest leaves as they appear and eventually the spring flush abates and new leaves are smaller.

Yes, that works, too, especially on JM which sticks out new large leaves here and there, one at a time until a full second flush emerges. And, I would opine that the smaller, follow-on leaves are partially a function of the fact that they are sharing resources with brothers emerging simultaneously, whereas the primaries are singular, fewer, and sharing more resources. It's the same principle of the tree dividing resources available between all leaves emerging at one time after full defoliation.

I never defoliate selective sections of the tree and don't understand the thinking. That's different from editing initial primaries and second flush primaries which are two different processes done at two different times for two different reasons. In spring it helps ramification and reduces average leaf size, but in later summer just slows growth. You have to want the outcomes before you do this. WP hates this and says it limits growth, which is why I do it. I make trees that would be WP's accent plants.

 

[Shibui]

I never defoliate selective sections of the tree and don't understand the thinking. That's different from editing initial primaries and second flush primaries which are two different processes done at two different times for two different reasons. In spring it helps ramification and reduces average leaf size, but in later summer just slows growth. You have to want the outcomes before you do this. WP hates this and says it limits growth, which is why I do it. I make trees that would be WP's accent plants.

Not sure if we are talking about the same thing but I use full (or nearly complete) defoliation on sections of a tree to slow down that area and allow the other parts to catch up or strengthen. A tree with an undeveloped lower branch will stay that way due to apical dominance unless the apex is weakened and that weak lower branch allowed to gain. Selective pruning can be sued but selective defoliation can also help. Branches in the apex of older, better developed trees tend to get thicker than lower ones so selective defoliation of those upper branches can delay the inevitable reduction pruning.
You also grow groups and may have found that outer trees that have more branches and leaves can thicken faster than the taller inner trunks which tend to have just a few branches near the top (this phenonemena takes many years to show up but it will eventually occur unless proactively managed) I now use occasional selective defoliation of the outer trunks and trees with more foliage to delay those problems. Again, selective prunin to slow growth of some areas is also used.

 

[Forsoothe!]

OK, I understand your partial defoliation now.

 

[HoneyHornet]

Pics?! Sounds like if ur chopping it in half the defoliation would be for naught right?I read the great inputs from the oracles here and absorbed additional info toward defoliation but not sure what your move will be..what did u walk with from the given info?